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#1 22/9/12 13:01

SangiEXE
Member

Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

It's called "Remember Me". Not sure if you guys heard about this game. It made me remember ONI. Since we didn't get a sequel to oni, this game might be the closest we get to it.

Look up the gameplay on youtube, since I'm not allowed to post links for some reason.

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#2 22/9/12 16:27

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Yeah, it looks interesting (by the way, welcome!).  Not sure it will end up being similar in gameplay to Oni, but it's in the same kind of NeoTokyo world with a cool female protagonist, so that's something.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#3 23/9/12 14:03

Reaperette
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2xJgYhHRa4

It definitely looks interesting. Hope it will really give us that Oni feeling we long for.

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#4 24/9/12 5:36

AdamBast
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

the main character is a girl, so it's obviously a big plus.
i was stunned by the graphics, my comp is 8 years old and i din't know the graphics evolved this much yikes

i have a bad feeling about this combo system though...
it reminds me of xblades' combo system, i don't know for sure if it's similar or even close to it, but it seems like it. you had combo's and you only had to press 1 button, it was nowhere near oni's system.

my feeling about these newer games is that they try making them playable by 7 year olds, and they don't pose any challenge.

i hope it will prove me wrong (and i'll have a machine that i'll be able to try it on)


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You're killing me
Please don't stop

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#5 24/9/12 10:54

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Jeez, that is one complicated system.  It looks like the parts that should be automatic need to be controlled by the player by constantly interrupting the game to engineer her combos, and the parts that should be controlled by the player, like what enemy to attack, are automated by the game.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#6 25/9/12 19:33

Samer
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Yeah looks promising but i agree with adam and iritscen, having to smash 1 button continously and it automatically makes different combos gets boring fast for me .. In oni 2 kicks then forward kick gives a different result and is harder to pull off than 3 kicks but here it looks like u press same button 4 times and each kick will automatically be different.
this reminds me much of assasin's creed, though different era, but the glitches appearing on screen when much health is lost and visitng memories is similar .. Also the comabt is a bit similar.
The combat system remindes me of the witcher a bit esp the targeting ..
The only games i've played so far that i found combat combo wise enjoyable and challenging are devil may cry games the 3 and 4 installments, you have dante with 4 styles of combat and several weapons and combos are harder to pull off depending on which keys u press, example hit, pause hit, hit hit or target   forward   hit or hit, hit, hit .. Or back   fw   hit ..  even though the game concept wise is very different from oni, the combat and combo mechanics remind me of oni somewhat. And he can smoothly switch to different styles in the 4th installation between guns, escape, sword master and blocking .. Giving room for more combos (also depending on the keys and the  timing u press) and individualized fighting style, if u have never played it, i highly recommend the 4th and 3rd game or at least check some videos of it.
only downside is that the enemies are not as melee combatant as the player.
Marvel ultimate alliance and xmen legends also have some nice combos (diferent key presses give different combos with different results) though they'll rarely be used in the game as characters have more powerful and unique 1 key press attacks
prince of persia warrior within had a very nice combo system with throws and sneak attacks (back breaker like) and many combos also depending on timing and what keys u press like oni, unfortunately it was removed in later installments.

Last edited by Samer (25/9/12 19:39)


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#7 25/9/12 23:09

Valkyrur
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

First Oni-esque thing I noticed was that HUD.

Dat HUD.


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#8 26/9/12 1:41

Jon God
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Noticed it after first trailer. Forgot to post it here.

-JG


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PSN: Jon_God
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#9 26/9/12 13:57

ltemplar
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Maybe I'm old player..but

This is almost rip off the Batman games fighting system...Tap one button for attack...jump automatically(sit!) to another target..do special action when their have shield..blablabla..Again This same boring system after 5 fights we get.And look again we have this freeze AI situation when preforming super hit. The combat is linear and boring..And what is with the security guys there..the do nothing when theirs comrades are battling to death? The not even try to fight back(one move for them is this a joke?) Honestly.. todays games are for 7 -yers old child's without any manual skills...taming in combat , watching for environment, blocking..planing your attacks is to hard to develop I see for todays game creators. I really was expecting more  from the Capcom with is know from making wonderful H2H games., because even the flashes specials and super uber animations will not mask the poor AI and combat system that this game have. I only hope that next Devil My Cry will not be reduced to this level.

Last edited by ltemplar (26/9/12 14:28)

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#10 26/9/12 20:20

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Heh, you sound like Loser's disciple.  Yes, I agree that the system is like the Batman Arkham games.  I recognized the amazing leaps that this female character sometimes makes when attacking as the mark of a system with "automatically-picked enemies", just like Batman makes some amazingly fast and long leaps in the Arkham games as you mash the attack button.  And the AI that patiently waits for its turn while its buddy attacks is from Batman as well as Assassin's Creed as well as Sleeping Dogs -- Loser has videos on his channel of him beating up whole groups of guys fairly easily in both those games by abusing the turn-waiting system.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#11 27/9/12 0:38

Loser
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Remember me. Settings are very similar to Oni, so is the "hi-tech" feeling.

Still, giving certain individuals the ability to mess with other charcters' memories as easily as can be seen in released trailers is not a good idea. Similar to DC universe...such powerful abilities introduce a whole world of possible logic flaws. In the end, users of these powers either follow some strong moral code which restricts them from easily solving majority of situations by simply abusing their powers (not likely to see in Remember me, guessing from so far released materials) or they are limited by some other hindering factors (recharge period, backlashes from power abuse etc.). None of these were so far showed.

Protagonist of the game can repeatedly use such strong powers in a combat to deal massive damage to its opponents. And if she can even rewrite memories completely, why not turn a few enemies into allies? In fact, why not turn almost all enemies into allies, gather an army an reform the world? And if the protagonist is not the only one with such powers (hinted in trailers, that it is only about technology), what keeps other users from abusing these powers for such purposes?

Finally about combat system...it's easy and complicated at the same time. If somebody invests into the game, she/he wants some profit. Game business is very risky. Thus if one entity takes the risk and suceeds (Rocksteady with their Batman, Activision and their CoD, Naughty Dogs and their Uncharted), it spawns a whole array of followers, who have easier time persuading investors that this game will be successful since it was already proven that there's an audience with positive attitude towards such a type of a game.

"Remember me" is not a project of industry-leaders (EA, Ubisoft, Capcom, Naughty Dogs etc.), so it obediently follows current trends in order to gain its rock certain sales. At the same time, to not be accused of ripping the Rocksteady's Batman gameplay completely, the project comes with its specialities - customizable combos, memory alteration and probably more.


Bottom (a bit selfish) line of this talk - if a certain project of mine was ever accomplished and if the motto "Always in control" was promoted enough, I think even we would be able to spawn a line of followers ^_^.


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#12 27/9/12 4:14

ltemplar
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Loser.

I know how game industry work.But this is not excuse to almost everything.

Story-We simply have to poor knowledge about,  how this story will be told so, we can only presume the facts you provided here. But I agree with You, that such power can be source of huge flaws in story line(especially for mature audiences not kids). Your examples could be true.
But we don't really know how the creators will settle this world, so we can be sure that there is no agency witch prohibit such actions you described. To be even more sceptically, maybe this entire "world" is only in the mind of the protagonist?

Combat system- To be honest with You..I not completely against one button attacks, but this must be done with some logic behind this.Batman fighting system is simply to easy(especially second game) at the beginning. On the hardest seatings I simply stand there and taping only second button(for counter)..and was able to defeat entire crowd of enemies..Is this is entertaining?Sourly NOT. Another flaw is MP, or boss fights. Batman can't have fights with another character, on the same level he is..because the players then will be mashing counter button repeatedly.
Returning to "Remember Me" system. This is exactly what I'm afraid off. Reducing game to  simple button mashing..add to this poor "wait for my turn" AI behavior..and we have easy but boring as hell fighting system, customize combos , etc will not change that. If the creators will make even one button mashing attack, but also gave AI possibility to counter or block till theirs comrades will not came to aid them, , then they can easily force players to do evasive maneuvers (attack from multi direction..close player in the ring of death situation , etc). Add to this removing of this irritating automatic "jump to target" system , then this will become more complex and interesting combat(aware of surrounding, don't allow to be closed in death ring, etc), even if the entire fight will be only for one combo+specials.
Another bad thing is this slow down when preforming finishing moves.This is interesting for 10 times when saw.. but ..if we see this 50th time..this will be boring..More..this will create filing that this fight is static(Freezing AI - for god sake), and take from player this first impression , that the combat is dynamic and fluid. If they create all thous specials integrated in real time combat not with this pause ,then  this will create situation when making this move could become a fatal mistake(balancing issue), because enemy can take advantage (attack from behind , grab her, etc).Ba then they can even take out entire force bar...
Another thing is inability to use the enemy weapons there(like in Batman again),or environment(pipes , computers) or enemy gear(shields, batons, etc.) against her oppressors. The gave her(I presume from trailer) some kind of energy shooting/hacking ability..Instead allow her to grab a gun and shot all them in the row(with so stupid AI this will not be to complicated task)
Interesting option I must honestly admit is this creating your combat moves system.But again..this is another part when everything can go wrong..I will not even discuses here ..how many things could be messed there completely.

Oni also don't have perfect H2H system or weapons usage,.. there are many flaws..especial in throw department or escaping moves, but regarding to this system ..ONi's is a gem.

If you show your projects here in the form of more completed system, then maybe we can produce something more interesting.
We can even discus with part could be changed and how..For example solution to throwing problem could be simple "throw when dis balanced" for all static forward throws- with will do significant amount of dmg+adding ability to escape when dis balanced. Also adding the dmg dealing particles when hitting the pavement with his head ..could be interesting too.Why only reduce to this..Why not add this particle to all body parts with will produce different results?
The holster a weapon problem..could be bay passed by my method of simply adding personal weapons to them(See Oni Dark future_TC topic for details).
I also proposed on forum complex framework for registering all materials(and adding few)- take a look
Maybe we can even create the successor to Oni by ourself. Surly Blender game engine, or unity could be a handy here.
There are many possibilities.
And I know that all thous things need time(not only in general but Ours also)..but why not?And I know what I'm talking about here.I'm working on NEP (mod for Earth 2160) almost 6 years now(and still it is not ready yet..sit!- but almost)..So I know how hard is accomplish such huge project in the team of 2-3 peoples.

Sorry for such big wall of text, and a lite of topic part.

Last edited by ltemplar (27/9/12 5:36)

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#13 28/9/12 7:42

Loser
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Man and here I thought I am almost alone with these feelings about today's games. I am glad we have quite similar opinions ^_^.

Let's put the question of possible story flaws aside. As you said, too little details are known so far. However, I still think this idea, albeit not bad, is so far presented as too powerful element. Well, let's wait and see.


Regarding combat systems. Here we differ a bit as I don't like it when the game uses just one attack input. One attack input (even tough it can be mixed with other controls) for such a complex mechanism as combat system is too much simplifying for me. Well, in games such as Uncharted the one attack input works good, but I assume here we are talking about games which focus more on close combat.
Personally I prefer two attack inputs and one guard input (and of course their combinations with other controls for more variety).

Next, "Rocksteady combat system" is in my opinion the purest form of the philosophy "Let's reward well-timed defense", mixed with strong simplification of combat conditions. "Well-timed defense" is just my placeholder name for the mechanism, in which the defender can not only negate attacker's attack, but somehow put the attacker into unfavorable condition or even execute sort of instant counterattack. Usually this mechanism is tied with executing it right before attacker's attack lands. It appeared quite early in fighting genre, but back then it was usually tied with several conditions (certain type of attack, certain type of guard, certain type of enemy etc) and it often served as a "combo breaker".

However, for a couple of reasons (most notable for the sake of attracting broader audience) game developers started simplifying conditions of the well-timed defense up to the Rocksteady's system, where the player only has to input one button. No correct facing is required, no correct "well-timed defense" command has to be chosen. Simply one button to unleash a devastating counterattack. This feature, together with other simplifications (such as "only one attacker" rule or the game A.I. performing the spacing instead of the player) creates nicely looking yet quite
broken system, which openly favorizes player character. That is Rocksteady combat system for me.


Now, to begin some discussion - you have written that Oni's combat system and weapon system have their flaws. I agree. Can I ask for some of these imperfections? Question is asked so I can compare how much we think alike and so I can present and cross-check some ideas of mine.


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#14 28/9/12 11:00

ltemplar
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

As I wrote I'm old player.

I was playing games like Street Fighter turbo ,when the were on Arcade system(no PC no consoles Etc).Thous games where something.
But putting aside this.

You want to know what ONI flaws are.Then let's start.

1)H2H- while overall scheme for it is quite nicely done, I think that it's a lite bit to slow in general. Why i think like this? Because ONI supposed to be game with is mixing H2H with other elements like shooting or platforming.This means few things
-killing by H2H should be fast(ad last minor foes)
-evasive maneuvers should be able not only evade H2h moves but also incoming projectiles(or give you any chance to get out from death ring situation)
-The game is based on anime , manga ,GITS..so the favoring weapons on longer distances should be more visible, while in close CQC(now the enemy siting there, till you kick him right into face(with my mod active this is almost a prefect kill).

Thous here a general things..now lets focus on the details.

a) throwing mechanics- This is a joke honestly..Complete inability to evade throws..
Possible solution. To understand this lets divide throws in the categories.
-Forward trows -In my opinion they should deal a huge amount of damage(punch)..but player or AI shouldn't be able to use it till the target is dis balanced, or stunned(he or she can fight back). kick throw by the other hand should be used for combo breaking maneuvers(the best if this can by activated by kick or punch attack done by enemy)   
-Back throws-things that can be simply coled finishers(for all minor foes)- Thous throws should be done only in really and i mean Really close distance on the enemies that are unable to see the attacker(stealth kill). In normal fight the situations that you can preform such move should be so rare that almost impossible to do. One note. Only one move (throw- by hand the best) should be able to do kill for unexpected enemy. The second (kick) will be used to kill too ,but only laying on the floor enemies.
-Ruining throws...Probably impossible to change.other by only reducing amount of dmg they are dealing.

b)Escape moves and counters.
-As i wrote above they should be a lot much faster, allowing player(or AI) simply defender; to move quickly out from the danger zone.Then then he can lunch a counter attack. But like the throws we can divided them in to categories.
- Low escape moves-the best for evading the hight coming attacks. or projectiles(barrel rolls in two directions)
- Middle escape moves- quick moves that allow to evade direct incoming attack(jump, kick, punch etc) and lunch fast counter.This maneuver is not changing the position of the player(only a lite bit) so is not the best solution in evading incoming projectiles or low kicks
- Hight escape moves-Good in evading everything. excluding only jump attacks.This maneuvers allow you to move out from danger zone relay quick.. but also disallow for any fast counter(exception can be jump-evade behind the enemy ..with doing fast kill hand back throw..but tis is tricky)
-The last one is block counter..If possible. With the right timing you can lunch fast counter hit and send attacker flaying.But again really good timing is needed to preform this move.
-Evasive from the unbalance state- like block counter..allow def. to do fast roll on the back.but good timing is needed.

That conclude my throw and evasive moves possible mechanism.
Now lets talk about firing system.
c)As I wrote in the general options to change, the firing system will not be excluded.
-Evade when fired..and I mean evade not only move from the incoming fire- possible solution change right run and left run to right barrel roll and left barrel roll(mentioned in the evading system).
-Ai have the same aiming for every character from snipers to simple grunt.That's stupid. While I can understand that specialist are good at what the are doing.then i cant simply buy the fact that simple low grade striker or worser thug can AIM like professional.Com on.. this is ridiculous. The next thing is that everybody use every weapon like they know about them almost everything- where is the room for specialization here?
-Ai is charging onto player on the fire..only trying evade or rather move from incoming projectile.I know that hiding is impossible in this game, by why you want to reduce the distance..when having a gun(for better results?)While i can understand that someone wielding a Black adder want to get in the best firing situation , that i can't understand when the same Striker armed witch plasma rifle is closing to me because I hided behind some crate(and my head is still visible)- Possible solution could be to alert the behavior to stay for x second in position (aiming in that direction) not blindly closing to the enemy
-Holstering when close. How many times I wasn't able to disarm my foe only because he  holster his weapon. Or the situation when closing to unsuspected enemy he upholster his gun and then start shotting? Never. why ..AI impossibility to do such things. The simulation of this process can be achieved by two methods:
added by script when some move is changed(to holster or upholster)(entering the combat or going into passive anim state)- but we know how BSL is limited.
or by adding the "weapon" as player attack move- to be more precise ass emitters(one for gun one for shoot on for emitting projectile) with will emit proper particle.In this method weapons can't be taken out(disarmed) from the player or AI.. there are problems with aiming..they require to set with combat moves will be changed..etc.. but this method also allow to have "two weapons".One normal with will be probably rifle..the second one handgun(with will be presented only when proper combat move will be preformed).The rifle weapons will be unable to  holster. due to balancing issue.Also changes in Combat behavior of the AI's with such added weapons.

I have many other things what can be changed
Like different material usage(exploding materials walls that can be broken), Armors ..etc..but This is for another time.(or you can examine proper topic when i discus about thous problems- Various particle modification project , or Oni Dark Future_TC, or BGI level and characters)

Last edited by ltemplar (28/9/12 11:10)

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#15 30/9/12 6:31

Loser
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

My my, what a fountain of interesting ideas, thank you ^_^
You almost persuaded me to start modding again, but then unfortunately, there's a certain Master's degree thesis which need to be done so after this post I will be gone again.

Anyway, allow me to continue our happy thread hijacking and comment / add other ideas. You will maybe find them useful.

Throwing mechanics
Oni throws are done in a simple beat'em up oldschool style. No pregrab time, no escape window. It simply happens. Of course such an implementation runs into problems mainly because of throw abuse.
--Front throws. You suggest that standard throws should be possible only when the enemy is "disbalanced". This resembles a bit the already existing concept of "StunGrab->Throw" mechanics, which was tested to be doable in Oni engine ( http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=1660 )
--Rear throws. I wholeheartedly agree with smaller throw distances for them. However, bear in mind differencies in size between characters. You can set so much small throw distance that the throw won't work against certain larger units, depending on their models.
--Running throws. Their effectivness can be toned down by giving them smaller throw distance and by making them work strictly on standing or forward moving characters. Then in MELE profiles, give the AI a lot strafing / ducking techniques. That can impair running throw spam quite a bit.

Escape mechanics
--More escape moves sounds great, but question is how to achieve it? Oni recognizes "some directional movement key + crouch key" inputs, but that's for four escape moves. And while you can add more escape moves by making the character perform different moves from different animStates, that would consume "pseudo-free-to-use" animStates and would take some time to prepare (player first needs to get into correct animState), thus having slow execution.
Of course you can for example utilize strafing (running left/right) movement inputs for this feature, but in m opinion that would cause characters to lose quite a big part of their mobility nad would probably bring AI issues (AI uses strafing for gunfire dodge).
--"Block counter" is possible, I toyed wit hthat idea as well. The problem is that only player can utilize such a technique. AI can be made to use it blindly (as a regular attack technique), but that does more bad than good.
--Escape from "unbalanced state" is mandatory, otherwise your "unbalanced state" feature would lose its uniqueness as far as I think. As it is written above, the "unbalanced state" feature is a bit similar to "StunGrab->Throw" system.

Shooting
--Evade from gunfire sounds not like a new feature, but simply as an animation thing. And like I mentioned above, there's a question how to call such an animation, which controls should be input? And why would the player want to use this mechanism instead of "zig-zag" sprinting? Also, current escape moves CAN be used to dodge incoming gunfire - in old days of OCF, we used to post screenshots and videos such as evading mercury bow shot with ninja's dodge move, similar to THIS ONE.
--The room for AI firearm specialization is HUGE. ONCC files hold "personal" shooting parameters for each weapon (section AI shooting skills). Quick example is THIS VIDEO.
--Next about AI charging its enemy with firearm: Oni was meant as an arcade game, so AI is rather straightforward with guns. It is impossible to make armed AIs stop chasing you if you hide behind a cover. Well, better formulation is: it can be achieved (changing pursuit and hostilethreat definite timer in ONCC file), but by doing this tweak, AI will stop chasing you each time you turn a corner, even if the AI is unarmed. That would lead to silly looking scenarios. For example: unarmed AI is brawling with the player. Player manages to hide behind the only large obstacle in a room. AI starts with "searching" for the player instead of checking the opposite side of the only one large obstale in the room. Or even worse - you could be able to confuse AI in close combat by getting out of sight for a small time. Such a bug can be even observed in vanilla Oni (Strikers sometimes keep laying on the floor after their front throw). Not very nice to see. Still, AI can be "taught" to be more cunning by clever use of a gunfire dodge mechanism. CLICK TO SEE AN EXAMPLE.
--Holstering/unholstering weapons. This feature can be emulated up a to a degree with BSL scripting and by clever use of CMBT profiles. CLICK TO SEE AN EXAMPLE.
--Adding weapon as a part of combat move is not the best idea in my opinion. While it certainly solves the dynamic holstering issue, it also takes away a rather unique feature - there is not too many 3d person games which allow characters to disarm opponents and use weapons against them. Oni is such a a game, and by "bolting" firearms to characters, you would take this uniqueness away.

Exploding materials, broken walls etc. As far as I know, Oni utilizes the only one "breakable environment" and that is environment asociated with glass material. All other environmental destruction has to be treated either via BSL scripts or as a glass, but hidden in other particles.

I hope this post helped you. Bye, and have fun modding and playing. Loser ^_^.


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#16 30/9/12 12:48

ltemplar
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Interesting content you provided here.

Shooting
-Adding combat shields..that's new..How? by BSL or by modify actual combat move?
-That behavior is quite interesting(modified the pistol combat range(how much AI should be away from player)..or something else?
-ONCC have real potential I see..But my question was if we really need modify all weapons and can't simply put them into classes
(Like small arms.. rifles, HE, etc.)?After that alert AI skills in  to unseeing them?

Throws.
-Interesting concept...but i see some flaws there.
-Low..as described.
Middle which are normal combat escape moves(with changed Animation).
-High are upgraded version of jump flips etc..already done by konoko in game.

One more thing. I want to have Two weapons: holster able , like pistols , smg , etc And not like rifles , rockets luncher..etc.
How something like that can be achieved?

Last edited by ltemplar (30/9/12 12:48)

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#17 30/9/12 23:19

EdT
Moderator

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Loser: very nice examples.  PLEASE do not delete the files!  smile  Can you upload the modified ONCC and bsl for our reference.

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#18 3/10/12 17:31

Seventeen Seconds
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

This is a great conversation and a new game in the making =P

Mod projects and small studios can afford to break rules.  A small game can have a completely different combat paradigm, like Oni did.  You don't need to link combos with one button in a forgiving game with animations as the reward, you give the player the tools they need to OODA -- observe, orient, decide, act -- against an unforgiving game, and make the player's actual proven performance the reward.  So what are those tools?

1.  You need to observe in 360 degrees. You can be cued aurally from footsteps from behind.  Visually, instead of the mouse turning your body immediately, perhaps it just turns your head to clear your 3 and 9 visually.  How will the controls not be a nightmare?  Breaking a longstanding game convention like this is not something a major studio could experiment with, but we can. 

2.  The player need to orient to the threat.  In one respect, that's experience from gaming the AI.  Or, we can make the game intuitive, referring to real life -- which is harder, but more rewarding.  How do we do that?  Speech, body language, dress -- how else do we spot the leader of a group, where the threat's center of gravity comes from, and who needs to be disarmed first?  That's without even thinking about the environment you're in, and may actually fall off of if you can't control the fight.

3.  The core of a fast-paced combat game like Oni to me, is decisions -- to fight flawlessly may not save you.  Do you lunge for the gun on the floor or the two strikers charging you?  Wrong decisions kill, and the more complex the environment and the situations it produces, the more interesting the stress we can put on the player.

4.  Finally, act.  Ease of control is important here.  How hard is it to transition from weapons to fistfighting?  Does the player maintain control and flexibility?  Or do we simply run from contextual action to contextual action, and combat is a simple test of timing with gory animations?

I just wanted to offer my 2 cents -- because Oni was so interesting not just for its twitch factor, or keyboard execution like Ryu's old dragon punch, but for the "how should I deal with this?" aspect playing out under extreme time pressure.  I think it's a very good point that not everyone want an oversimplified system, because the player's engagement is reduced.  So, there is potential here.  Oni tapped a certain niche which is not catered to at present.  At least from what I've always understood...

Last edited by Seventeen Seconds (3/10/12 17:32)

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#19 4/10/12 14:20

ltemplar
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Seventeen Seconds

I agree with the most.but

1)I understand that big company's can afford to lose...but..repetition every step isn't what make this game worth remembering..or in pure business term..worth baying(IF the batman do this better).

2)Understand the dress part..Spotting the leader is essential thing..but what if you simply make a mistake?That can also produce interesting stress on the player(you mistaken the target..what a shame). One more thing ..General is not always the guy who is good in fighting..

3)Exactly..Decision you made can by god or Fatal..It's up to the player to decide what to do or where to go. And I agree its harder to make but no impossible.

4)And that's exactly what we all are talking about..game could be hard but the controls can balance this problem...That's why I will handle my statement about lazy game developers ..and theirs AI. And I agree that much easier is to make game where doing some super move will provide god visual reward(spectacular combo finish for example), while  much harder is to make where player reward is in the shape of wining this encounter only.

Last edited by ltemplar (4/10/12 14:53)

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#20 4/10/12 17:43

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Viewtiful Joe is a great example of a game where you have to make your own victory in a fight, there's no QT event or button-mashing to help you through it.  It's incredibly satisfying to just barely beat a boss after multiple tries, and then later in the game, when you've gotten more skilled through practice, be able to casually beat mechanical versions of the same boss as they attack you two at a time.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#21 6/10/12 19:26

Loser
Member

Re: Possibly a spiritual successor to ONI

Hey EdT, HERE YOU ARE. While EdT is explicitly called, of course everyone is welcome to try out this concept.

With this done, all Oni relates stuff goes down the toilet again. Bye bye comrades and behave, otherwise Iritscen will tell Geyser and that is one person not to be taken lightly ^_^


P.S.: Viewtiful Joe looks awesome ^_^

Last edited by Loser (6/10/12 19:28)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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