BGI Characters and Levels Discussion

ltemplar · 10/04/12 11:10

If It is gonna be a common foe..and the military bot..then maybe adding some camouflage and simple identify numbers will be better than making him a white mixed with green? Something like my mobile turret perhaps?..Also i want to experiment a lite bit with shooting moves idea(integrated weapons for this bot)..But firs i must get your's acceptation guys(I will do it anyway, but not release for community usage then )

Samer · 10/04/12 15:10

Common foe means he'll appear more than others as will the ninjabot, and troopers. And i thought u're more than 40 % done with textrures.
to be honest i don't get the military camo thing .. There's no forest or snow or whatever to blend in.
So for me, i hope u release the textures as is that fit with the others (ninbot, hydra, hammer) and then if u want to make another variant with different textures sure.
For the moves, integrated weapons, as i said before, i hope u make the typhoon that way, for this one .. Sentry droids and guard dogs make enough bots with integrated weapons that can't be taken off, and the typhoon may be a nice edition, but we need melee in there... Imagining a bunch of these attacking u with weapons that can't be disarmed it will be chaos.

so fitst step is releasing the textures with the current color scheme.
we'll discuss the moves.
for me i feel typhoon will be better with the integrated weapons as he's less common.
but again not gonna interfere too much as it's geyser's model..

ltemplar · 10/04/12 15:10

Yes I'm done 60% now...But i always make textures this way that i can easy change wherever I want(I provided you the example- see how easy you can swap color on the furnitures.) because color and camo I always kept on separate layers..So for me making 10+ different color schemes is the piece of cake.
Integrated weapons will be more like move -Mai's/Konoko's Rising furry for example..

Last edited by ltemplar (10/04/12 15:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 15:10

Mm as i said i hope to see that on the typhoon instead.
But that's my opinion.
but for the colors let's stick with the color scheme we used for all the other characters, which will also be helpful to me for using in the other characters, he'll stand out if he's the only one who is different. (if u really want to we can have the camo as extra variant)

ltemplar · 10/04/12 16:10

Geyser give me the message if you revived my e-mail..

Camo as extra variant for all BGI..hmm..or The fact this is the war bot which can be used by military..as firs line of attack.
And how often you can do rising fury without consequences?Add long recover time and you have this balance(AI will use it only from mid or close distance)

Samer · 10/04/12 16:10

what military ? we said it's a BGI character. Anyway do like u want, i said my opinion but I want the white textures please even if u make a camo one.

"Camo as extra variant for all BGI"
I don't feel that's necessary :\
and as I said I'm not a fan of camo textures too "oldish" for me ..

Last edited by Samer (10/04/12 16:10)

ltemplar · 10/04/12 16:10

Ok.

Samer · 10/04/12 17:10

ltemplar if i give u the hydra head mesh and texture .. can u improve the head mesh ? add more polygons to make it smoother ? (no change to texture)

geyser · 10/04/12 18:10

Samer, wow, you are really keeping those requests coming, aren't you... Looks like you're the boss of this project all right

I too think camo is out of place in Oni's urban environments. Then again white (with or without green spots) is also too flashy, stormtrooper-style. I'd prefer black or grey metal, with a reflectivity channel (kinda like what Mukade has, or the Black Ops TCTF, or that blackened Barabas that I demonstrated a long time ago). It's great that you make textures in a multi-layered fashion, Ltemplar, because we can experiment and adjust the colors as needed. If we see that too much white is, well, too much white, we can always try grey or black later. So, at this point, looks like it's white for Samer, and black/grey for me, and then we'll see. If you give me the layers, I can make my own color scheme, but I need the basic layout and UVs. So, thanks in advance. In fact, this character is already enough to start introducing BGi into Oni's story (as a faraway threat in Chapter 7, for example).

Same for identification numbers and other decals/whatever. We can always add them later, after some further discussion, once the basic surface of the robot is done. I think at this point what is important is to determine the metallic (reflective) areas and the dark (non-reflective ones) - holes for bolts, rivets, handles, "seams" between armor plates, etc. I would appreciate it if there were "triple holes" in a few places (groups of holes about 1 inch each, arranged in a triangle), because this is a staple of Oni design (and maybe not only Oni).

As for the moves, it depends on what "caliber" we're talking about. If NinBot is retained as BGi's light robot, then this one can be medium (Striker), heavy (Elite) and extra-heavy (Murzilla). Obviously there can be some mix-and-matching between animation sets (Tanker dodges, yes, why not). Overall I don't expect too much agility for this character, let alone acrobatics. They're not very slow, but their focus is on unforgivingly powerful moves, which can't be blocked and hurt like hell. Those combos should be enhanced by particles emitted from the forearm (something like the plasma sword of a Protoss in StarCraft) - maybe even some projectiles should be shot during the move, but they would have a short range and/or a wide spread, so that they would only make sense in the context of melee. The idea of having such a "plasma sword" for the heavy trooper has been around for very long - I remember thinking about it when I first adapted this model for Oni (actually, no, even before that, when I were just getting around to adapting the Spartan - see HERE).
Of course, new animations can be designed, both for particle-enhanced moves (kamehameha, rising fury, etc), and for more regular, physical attacks. Some attacks could be very specific to robots, and impossible for other humanoids. For example, depending on the way a robot is designed, it could literally spin its upper part through 360°, arms extended. Like the Elite's Helicopter, or Muro's Helicopter, except the robots would stand firmly on the ground while their arms are spinning. Various jetpack-enhanced moves, too (brief hovering). Etc.

Another question is what to do when a robot is defeated. I think it should self-destruct - either an explosion or some other stuff, like a cloud of nanobots. Or maybe they could use teleportation devices - which would work at least on inert objects. Basically, every BGi unit should either self-destruct or teleport away when defeated (they could also self-destruct on purpose, when they are certain that this will deal a lot of damage to Konoko). And they could use phase cloaking, a lot. How much exactly - this will be revealed by experimentation.

I don't think we actually need to consider the Typhoon while working on the robot soldier. Or at all. To be blunt, I think the Typhoon sucks. Big time. It's blocky and it's white and it's meh. It's like Iron Man Mark I, only worse. So, if anything should be scrapped, it's the Typhoon (my opinion). If anything, it shouldn't keep us from applying melee particles to the heavy robot soldier.

P.S. I received your email, Ltemplar, but I think there's been a misunderstanding of some kind. I've tried your engine, and the "drop" and "swap" keys both behave as usual. Details on the wiki.

Last edited by geyser (10/04/12 19:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 18:10

geyser wrote:

Samer, wow, you are really keeping those requests coming, aren't you... Looks like you're the boss of this project all right .

Samer wrote:

anyway, i just wanted a simple tower to one day use for all the bgi characters i'll make as an extra separate level like i'm going to have for the custom character mega pack .. however if u'll make an entire bgi level and include all my BGI characters then that will be awesome and i won't need the separate tower.
We can collaborate to finish the characters as i'm unable to finish them alone at this time ..
i have the bgi agents .. These are sarai's henchmen and would be suitable for the attack on konoko's apartment ..but I need new animations for them ... Throws and such ( have them planned but have't had the time and sometimes the skill to make them)
i'm also planning to make bgi guards, and a receptionist which can be used for the business part of your level ..

ltemplar wrote:

I will shown you my human version(when done) of the Trooper then you could decide with one will be better for use.
BTW. I like the color scheme for the BGI that you provided.

http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … d=2413&p=4 post 80 forward.

It started as a collaboration and me asking for ltemplar's help with the bgi characters to include in his bgi level project .. somehow it turned into let's revive the wiki page project. but ok whatever I'm game.

I'm also working to make the 2 other hydra variants, ltemplar would 'smoothen' the face faster and better than I could.

It's great that you make textures in a multi-layered fashion, Ltemplar, because we can experiment and adjust the colors as needed. If we see that too much white is, well, too much white, we can always try grey or black later.

that will effectively (and coincidentally) take the hydra, ninjabot .. typhoon and (hammer?) i.e all my character concepts ... out of the equation cz unlike ltemplar i don't keep the psds. there will be black textured characters .. jubei and akane, agents, sarai.
However I don't mind having 2 color variants if it's easy for ltemplar to remake a black hammer, and typhoon and help me with the hydra and ninjabot textures ... and the packages could be optional .. users can decide which to use the black or white.

Last edited by Samer (10/04/12 19:10)

geyser · 10/04/12 19:10

"let's revive the wiki page"?

I don't think of the Typhoon as a valuable asset to begin with, and it's ironic that its color has influenced this whole BGi lineup. (Note: I edited the previous post a lot, sorry about that.)
Hammer is, well, so-so. It has yet to convince me, especially its bizarre fighting scheme (and Rhino influence, yikes). Hydras... well, I guess I'm ok with white Hydras, insofar as I'm OK with Hydras at all (why the name Hydra anyway? do their heads grow back or something?). Like the ninjabot (I'm assuming you mean the one from RF Online), they will rely mostly on stealth (phase cloaking and some serious cover), speed and deadly attacks, so maybe the flashy colors won't be as much of an issue for them (same as for Konoko's TCTF outfit, BTW).
And let's not exaggerate anything. Changing the color of an armor suit is very easy, especially when the original color is plain white. We'll see about colors later. For now, any will do.

I'll write a few more thoughts about the apartment later (and about the TCTF, and about the other possible encounters with BGi; I think they can attack Konoko as early as in Chapter 7).
As for the apartment in which Konoko gets attacked by BGi - I still think it can't be her own apartment (because at that point she'd already have rogue agent status). And maybe not even Casey's or Karen's - because if they were close friends of Konoko's they'd probably be watched too... What would make the most sense is to stay at the apartment of Dead Mole Chung. To gain access to it, she might have needed to contact Karen and/or Casey, but from then on she'd stay at Chung's place most of the time, without exposing Casey or Karen too much.

Last edited by geyser (10/04/12 19:10)

Samer · 10/04/12 19:10

The issue is i don't feel the need to convince you of anything .. It's not ur project to begin with, u conveniently came back when we're making some progress and tried to hijack the whole thing to make ur project ie the BGi wiki page ..
And i'm still not ok with that. i'm trying to be but u're really making it difficult.
have u read the thread u would have read that ltemplar is already improving the typhoon's model.
True or false ? The bgi concept has been left for years .. So neither u mod it but if someone else wants to, u have to criticize it and belittle it every step of the way. Literally i've spent more time on this thread replying to ur not so subtle attempts to take all my concepts off, while i could have spent that time finishing the mods. You're making me want to stop modding all together.
Don't like the hydras, nor the hammer, they are made and will be released. Many other users do and they have been in the making for a long time. i'll name it pikachu if i want.
Fine the robot is from RF online .. your alien model or master chief is more original how ? It's a bloody alien for god's sake. That fits in oni but the ninjabot doesn't .. right ? For me if anything is to be scrapped it's the alien.
ouh the hydra has some parts from konoko's outfit good eye, few days ago it wasn't ok cz it was hikari .. The bastardized elite on a barabas and mukade texture is far more unique.
seriously i've had enough of this.
'' If i made it or thought of it, it's awesome no matter how flawed it is, if someone else did it's crap'' that attitude pisses me off. Severed textures are ugly, but zombie shinitoo is awesome, alien is awesome, ninbot doesn't fit, it's ok to resmble spartan and have star war swords but it's not ok to resemble stormtrooper in color, or have ''fantasy'' belts ..
Go ahead and make better ones. The hydra and hammer and ninjabot and if ltemplar makes an improved typhoon, are here to stay.
I'm gonig to continue my mods.

Last edited by Samer (10/04/12 20:10)

geyser · 10/04/12 21:10

Samer,

Like I said before, I am sorry for making you feel that way. And I cannot be the judge here, but my impression is that you're overreacting. I "conveniently came back" specifically to answer Ltemplar's non-trivial engine-related questions, and then I saw that there was also an open discussion about plot elements and overall BGi design. So I thought, what the hell, let's talk about BGi. But if my contributions come across as passive-aggressive or manipulative, then maybe they are, and I should probably stop this dirty business of mine.

Anyway. Most of my ancient concepts are nothing but placeholders. Master Chief, for example - it was, like, the first character import ever; I imported him to show that it could be done at all; and since he was all faceless and Mukade-ish, I tested him (briefly) as a placeholder for BGi troopers. The Mukade/Barabas bastards (which as a concept predate both the "alien" and Master Chief) are absolute placeholders - I only meant to show how much could be done in that direction without authoring any new meshes at all (which you of all people should understand, as you've modded a hell of a lot of characters in that same spirit), and I cited them in this thread to better explain how I (I personally) relate to the BGi concept - where I come from, so to speak.

I have no authority to take anyone's concepts "off" (whatever that means). All I do is offer some insight, which may at times be uncomfortable, to the point where it is perceived as aggression or manipulation. But really I'm just brainstorming out loud, trying to make sense of what I see, and to decide if I like it or not, and what advice of mine could help improve it.
For your own sake, please don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say the Hydra was crap, and I didn't say the NinBot was crap, and NEVER did I call SeverED's textures ugly, and I never said the "alien" was "awesome", or "zombie shinitoo" (who's that anyway? Shinatama Too? another placeholder made for demonstrational purposes, not advertised as a mod of any kind, let alone a contribution to Oni canon; and, for the record, I'm colorblind). If you care to recall the exact words I said, and give me a chance to explain what I meant, you'll see that there's no point for anyone to be offended.

When I point at things like fantasy belts - I'm just telling you what I see. I see a fantasy-influenced robotic knight, with belts on its hips. Whatever is the purpose of those belts, I am not sure that they fit in well with Oni's character design in general, and more specifcially with the BGi character lineup so far. So, I venture a word of advice - try and remove those belts, whenever you feel like it, and see if it looks better. Same for everything else. If this is your thread, and my inquisitions annoy you, then just say so, and I'll stop. It is true that you could focus on modding rather than answering my rants. And wasting your time, quite frankly, isn't the best use of my time, either. (Either that, or you can try and ignore me.)

P.S. I have no idea why the "alien" model was called "alien". Apparently some SketchUp novice got the model (from wherever), painted it green, added some extra spikes on the spine and shoulders (unless they were already there), and called it an "alien". Other than the spikes and the green color it looks nothing like an "alien" to me. The feet have two toes each and the hands have three fingers, but how is that alien? isn't that the exact same finger/toe count as Oni's ninjabots? I am not a pro modeler myself, but I've browsed through TONS of models in relation to Oni (characters, environment, furniture, everything), and I didn't select this one (out of hundreds) without a good reason. Simply put, it has some damn good low-poly geometry - and I can't really explain it, but the very style in which its body parts are designed, there's something practical about them, something simple and sensible, which makes it fit in well with Oni's characters. If it was a Gundam, or an EVA, it wouldn't work. But with a mesh such as that "alien", it works. Or at least I feel that it might work. That with some proper texturing it just might fit into Oni as if it was always there. My wish, of course.

That's just how I feel, though. And it's probably arrogant of me to come here after all those years, waving my brainstorming and intuition around. Again, I can't judge myself, and I'm sorry if I'm pissing anyone off.

Last edited by geyser (10/04/12 21:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 00:10

1. I can't judge your intention, only you can know that, but for me the way it came of is a bit arrogant, and like you're the decision maker or the one I should aim to please. Example : the bgi ninjabot which u 'accidently' called ninjabot too .. You said If it's to be retained. Implying that it might not be as if you're going to be the one with the fina decision.
the hydras it seemed to me that you're just making excuses to not include it, first it was hikari issue, then sld issue then etc .. Then u again say : insofar as I'm ok with Hydras at all. And again you pick on the name though I replied before the concept was originally by another modder and friend, he named it hydra i chose to honor his wish of naming it that and i said i'm open for changing name before release, suggest a name for it if u want.
hammer ''still to convince me'' .. That part as if I'm supposed or should work to convince you with my concept and project. It's like me going to say to Ed for example an Old china level .. Mm no i'm not convinced try harder. It comes off as arrogant. To me at least.
i'm ok with feedback to make it better but so far for the hammer and hydra u've only said reasons why they shouldn't be there or why you don't like them. I don't see how that's improving them.
for the ninjabot belt thing, if i hadn't linked the image with the bot next to a sword and robot warrior as title, would it have occured to u the fantasy thing ? Cz plenty other users saw it and no one else brought it up. (not on the forum) i'm not stubborn .. Example for hanako black armor i tried ltemplar's and Ed's suggestion when several others agreed, but for one opinion to go back to a released package and then change it and reupload it. I don't feel it's necessary now and i felt that you were merely nit picking and contradiciting urself .. Like for the size u said they can have huge mecha but for this one it should be same size as the training drone .. i don't want it to be that way. I tried it smaller it didn't like it, it looks more intimidating this way. For example for the heavy bot, true the toes/fingers are similar, but there are other differences, the proportion of it is one thing, it's a whole lot wider, the eye is a helmet it's not an eye, the little insectoid like things on it's mouth/chin (that's what makes it look alieny to me) .. The way u overlook these in ur model, but nit pick on mine is what annoys me.
the model i brought also has similarities to the oni bot, the head being most obvious : 1 eyed, the proportion of the body : thin mid and biceps, and thighs .. The overall shape just looks like a more advanced form of the droid.
i know for you removing the belts is simple, it is, but for me i'm only getting electrical power few hrs in my country. Every minute counts believe it or not, (writing this on my mobile) right now i'm not doing anything except modding,(I'm looking for a job), soon i might not have the time to mod anymore when i find one, example i get electric power 12 am to 3 am, or 3 am to 6am, now i'm staying up and modding, but later i won't be able to do that, so i'm trying to finish as much of my concepts as i can. The time i'll have to put into editing the bot again and uploading it on my hellishly slow internet, is better spent on other unfinished mods which i have plenty of, i'm not against trying it though and i will but not now.

2. I admit that I'm a sensitive person and I can't stay quiet on what I'm feeling/thinking. (seems we share that trait) so when I'm annoyed i will say so, I won't just take it, it may come across as dramatic or overreacting, but that's the way it is.

3. About putting words in your mouth.
ok i admit this is not what u said by word but rather the impression i got by u saying them. So to clarify no u didn't say severed textures are ugly, u said when i told u i'm gonna update shinatama too with severed textures : Severed facial textured weren't so lively last time i checked but for shinatama i guess they'll do seeing as she's an sld.
I apologize if i misinterpreted that,
no u didn't say the hydra is crap, but u've openly expressed u don't like it and don't want it to be included saying it's zooish and an offense to hikari. same for hammer 'as useless a freak as barabas, rhino influence "yikes"
I call the original shinitoo zombish cause her color scheme of green, bloody red and pale brown remind me of a zombie, that's not so nice of me.. But then again neither is the zoo and freak thing.

4. I understand that ur master chief, shinitama too, basterdized characters, elvis muro, casey with blue comguy outfit .. Are proof of concept and as I told u before they inspired much of my modding, you grew much since then right ? .. So i ask u, ur casey concept at that time it was a breakthrough, how would u have felt if someone came along and tore it down : mm it looks like a comguy, the blue is too saturated, why did u name it casey, the head is too feminine, look at the pixelation .. Etc. That's how i'm feeling. Now u can look at it and say mm yeah i might have been able to do better, so maybe 1 day i'll look back and say mm yeah what was i thinking with the hammer, but for now i'm crazy about it. So allow me that joy to see my mods come to live and be used, i might not have that oppurtonity again, i too have been waiting for these mods for years I'm so happy ltemplar is here and is helping me out with them, i wouldn't have had the time nor the skill he has to do them myself .. So just let them be, please.

Finally, last thing i want is to start a verbal war with someone across the globe, i'm modding cz i enjoy it, i enjoy making new characters, maybe they're a form of expression as u said, maybe they're too cute or colorful or flashy or whatever, but i like them, and some seem to like them too. And this project is going to include them that makes me happy, i don't mind u having another project or package or whatever with ur ideas as i said, flying bots, spider tanks etc.. Or we can combine them in this one, but i want us to stop trying to as i said take them out and belittle each other's ideas.

i can't prevent you from expressing ur opinion, i hope though it would take a more encouraging tone and that you realize that i'm not trying to follow certain standards, if u say u don't like it fine, but don't expect me to just drop it, sometimes i might agree with u and take it into consideration, but if i don't then i don't, you keep repeating it, won't make me agree. So i don't know how my response is going to be to ur comments from now on, i might take them into consideration, i might ignore them, they may piss me off ... I don't know, but one thing for sure i'm going to spend more time modding now rather than arguing.

p.s i want u to keep in mind that this argument is about a game we're both passionate about, it doesn't define us as people and in the end there's nothing personal, and i do appreciate the maturity u showed in ur previous reply.

that being said, i like the moves u proposed for the heavy robot, i don't see why they or a similar moves can't be used for a better typhoon too. i already have a custom animation i like to call the tornado move made for the typhoon, similar to what u described of arm rotating.

Last edited by Samer (10/05/12 08:10)

ltemplar · 10/05/12 02:10

Another dramatic.."expressions" ?

Guys Relax..We all modding because we are enjoying this right? We need to be more flexible.As I wrote many times before why not make all thous things, but simply found out the logic explanation? This will be better than creating another Flame War..which will end in baning one or another.
So please Stop.

1)Geyser..I will improve what i can..but you must understand Samer too. You put some concepts on the Wiki, but any detail reference haven't be added to them. You can expect someone to read your maid.If you want some particular design to be created..then provide some references(sketch will be good enough) and add color scheme to it.Puting place holder and telling - this should be similar..isn't the good example of how this should be done.

2)Sammer..now you really overreacted..I understand you ..that it's frustrating if someone is jumping and telling you "This is zooisch" or that "freak", but this is normal in real life to...If you be so sensitive in Your job you will be fired pretty quick. So relax. If you only know how many times I recreated from scratch for example HT30-( Ed nation Tank), or any other model...you can create no 1 NEP but 10. And I was even more sensitive than you but I get the proper distance to this.
One note. Sometimes is better to scrap something(or include another design) than keeping tight to it. I know this for autopsy (and reacted even worser than you about this...) but that's a bad behavior...

3)Geyser did you read about mythology around stormtroopers? If not theirs White armor is based on east believing that white is a color of death..Taking this to account you fill about them the same now?

4)Not all cannon ONI original stuff is good(for Me).For example I hate this reddish or bluish design on Syndicate minions(why the cant keep thous camo-like outfits?). Exactly the same like .."What the "idiot" designed thous orange parts on TCTF uniform..blue and darker gray will be much better" .Something like that can be for children's themed game not something Like GITS.
But for all thous years I somehow use to it...to the point that i tolerate them(till I make my version off curse ).
And one another thing. I'm not convinced to all thous color swamping thing(creating chars with different color schemes)..For me it's game designers a lame excuse of how to make more enemies using the same model(not even texture).

And Samer no one is forcing you to do anything...Nor Me or EdT or Geyser...we only sheering our ideas and try to do something together..thats all.
One more thing .Sometimes it's hard to make out constructive critics from simple "I don't like this" especially when we don't agree with that.

Last edited by ltemplar (10/05/12 04:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 04:10

... ok then, I don't have any thing more to say about this.

ltemplar if i give u the hydra head mesh and texture .. can u improve the head mesh ? add more polygons to make it smoother ? (no change to texture)

If you want to of course, I'd appreciate the help, if not that's ok too. I'm not the boss of anything.

ltemplar · 10/05/12 04:10

Send me the hydra Head mesh and texture(only)..and I will see what can be done.

ltemplar · 10/05/12 05:10

Now let's go back to level design discussion ..can we?

1)Geyser your idea about apartment is interesting...but I don't like your idea she is alone there...Think about possibilities. If she stay in Caren apartment. this can be normal chat (shower scene is logic because she need to clan up all this mess...).When she stay in Casey apartment..this could be perfect occasion to show her personal filings a lite more(maybe even some romance??).
If we are going to make her capture and interrogated by BGI..then the apartment could me this place where that hempen(maybe she cover Casey or Caren escape..or other possibility).Think about it. After all i can create tree buildings , then the player will get a choice where to go (Caren apartment, Casey, or mole Chang.)

2)BGI encounter in TCTF HQ- hmm I Told you about my filings.So maybe this time BGI want to kill her*(After that mess she caused in theirs Base)?
Because it's your idea tell me firs what models you want...then we can set up this together.But probably this will require more specialist chat..

3)Bgi ROBOT is interestingly designed..I don't see him as alien..This is pure robotic construction.Color scheme is open for discusion topic.

4)We shuld discus more aobut what others models will be required for thous encunters..

5)I have proposition regarding old char entries like Terence Griffin. It's role is rather unrated in this game. So maybe we can fill thous holes..and show his personality more.
We can show that he is more convinced to let Konoko/Mai live than he showing this by entire game("He is Old cold Bastard" paraphrasing Dr Kerr ).Showing the Room of shadows (WGC or TCTF high command) will be perfect for this task. Lets punting Griffin in the role of Her Defender there - this will also make a impact on the players last decision (kill him or not) We as players will be knowing this..Kononoko as character no. Even creating this ROOM OF SHADOWS could be the spoiler that will end some chapters..
"Sentence like that" Let's allow this bi@# have her revenge..we will kill both birds with one stone"..Number 2 prepare your BGI execution squad after her confrontation..And kill everybody..I mean Everybody no witness can be allowed to live."..This could create some confusion on players(going by somebody scheme from all that time could be interesting).Also decision to kill or speer Griffin..
A also plan adding her encounter with Casey..in the training room..Btw. he can be womens Heart breaking type.
"Casey I want to test her".....Before encounter "Helo sweetie ..."...If i bet you you will go with me for date(With wide smile on his face)" Konoko. "Ewerything you will dating tonight will be my fists.." ..or something like that. End then encounter begins. Things like that can help us improve personalities of thous characters.

So what do You think?

Last edited by ltemplar (10/05/12 05:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 06:10

For the apartment, ltemplar ur original idea was that it's before the syndicate attack on tctf hq .. Now it's after she's gone rogue ? I'm confused about that part.
When is the attack on the apartment happening now ?
if u want the attack on apartment then bgi hq, then ur abandaoned warehouse idea won't be available, as the 2 levels will be consecutive, also the exploring of the building with the apartments will be limited, she'll lose to be captured right ? Or do u want her to be attacked and then maybe she'll run away thru the building, (no time for her to explore) and face Sarai, but when Sarai is about to lose, she pulls out a weapon that tranquilizes konoko, or maybe more agnets attack and outnumber her. But then again why would she go to the apartment at that point, if she's rogue she's on a mission to bring down griffin and then the syndicate, it's hardly time for her to rest or romance.

I liked ur original idea more, the attack happening before the syndicate raid on tctf as i said, it could be due that the bgi have been looking for her since her uncle hid her, and after the fight with barabas that she survived, she was brought up to their attention so they try to kidnap her but fail, she could capture and interrogate or follow one of the agents to the abandoned warehouse where she gets some clues about the bgi but her quest is interrupted by a help call from the tctf hq being attacked by the syndicate. Much later on .. Maybe after the sc prison she learns about the bgi and attacks their hq. And they then try to eliminate her 1 final time in the tctf hq redux. Or the tctf hq attack first then her attack on bgi hq.

I like the casey appearance in training room, but let's not make him a jerk, let him be genuinely be interested in konoko, but she doesn't return that interest at first, he strikes me as a genuine good guy, who always plays by the rules, but is willing to bend them for konoko. that's how i see his personality : http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … hp?id=2403 ..
with his arm broken and getting yelled at by griffin in the lose screens and how he always looks sad in them, he doesn't give me the impression of an arrogant ladies man.

an idea we had in the joint story, was that casey was kidnapped by the bgi and that he's actually griffin's son, that would explain why he suddenly disappeared, and the bgi would use that to blackmail griffin... that can be a reason for her to attack the bgi hq.

For the bgi attack after tctf vault encounter .. If she spares griffin .. He just hides there inside the vault while she's fighting the bgi ?, this could be a nice oppurtinity to use the golden tctfs or ultimate griffin, if she spares him, he goes and wears his super armor and helps her fight the bgi or attacks with the golden tctf swat or some of ur newer tctf characters ltemplar.

Last edited by Samer (10/05/12 06:10)

ltemplar · 10/05/12 07:10

I wrote that I'm flexible didn't I?

So what if we create"

5 encounters instead of 3

1)- Her apartment - fast fight fast escape
2)Abandoned Warehouse
3)Second apartment after she goes rouge (Her friend?)- Dramatic fight with overwhelming force 3 choices where to go or 2 or none?
4)BGI HQ when captured
5)BGI counterattack on TCTF HQ- final confrontation.
6)(spoilers -ROOM OF SHADOWS-)Consolidation of what she "achieved" in the words of the real BGI High ops...(hehe) after encunter with muro(Oh yes..let's alow think player that this is over...BUhahahahahahahhahah......)

About Casey- Ok. then no arrogant jerk but normal friend..this could also work.

Geyser ..about BGI..Konoko may think that "...BGI is suspect Syndicate front..(phase from the game)" so Business building is not so out of the place after all.

Still don't get yours opinion about The Room Of Shadow concept....

Samer · 10/05/12 07:10

Cz i didn't really understand what u mean, but i've always imagined a room with the big bosses for the bgi these are the bgi executives that i mentioned old guys in suits (not the agents) behind the whole thing plotting and influencing both tctf and syndicate in some way, if that's what u mean then yes i like it. Not to be seen by konoko herself but by the player like u said.

flexible is ok but u won't want to be a push over either, if u're really into a concept and it makes sense to you and it's going well, then stick by it ... You can't please every one.

for me 5 encounters with 2 partments is excessive ...
apartment with ur shower scene before she's rogue, then abandoned warehouse ... . Later on bgi hq after sc prison and counter attack on tctf hq. 4 encounters... And final scene as u said at the end of game.

there will be other ways to incorporate casey or caren (but carens to me are generic they appear several times in tctf hq redux and else where)... Like maybe they kidnapped him to interrogate him about konoko, he sent her a distress call .. She goes to save him, so she'll be exploring the bgi hq till she finds where he's held, coming across the various bgi cyborgs, sarai could be torturing him in the uderground facility .. after she does they fight side by side the iron demon and escape.

Last edited by Samer (10/05/12 08:10)

ltemplar · 10/05/12 08:10

This cuold also work...
I don't fill to be pushed around..but if i will.. you will then see the DARK SIDE of my personality...(Probably ended with ban for me)

The entire Apartment encounter is for discussion....We still debating about it...so i see no problem in "hard" chat.

The room of shadows..will be the room of shadows...The Name for it came from the way how it will be presented..Simple dark room or hall where the "Big fishes" are siting and debating about important things. All persons are shades(you can't identify them) ..The "guest" of this "closed circle" is standing(in the light that player can identify him or her) and reporting to them ... So player can't see who there are. This will also give shadow organization fill...if presented that way. Classic anime style of showing such organization...

Why apartment after her "Acid bath" is required..you my guess wise guy Shower scene could be in the second apartment(after mentioned "bath" part). The first encounter could look different (her siting in dining room..even better because I can show how she live- remember my chat about tight apartment that she can afford?This will be perfect).

Last edited by ltemplar (10/05/12 08:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 08:10

So .. There's no need for me to make bgi executives then ? They can be sitting there and it's shadowy and everyhting but still show them a little bit. Like a higher council of baddies.

so first time she's sitting in an apartment .. Bgi attack they escape.
second time she's showering in another apartment .. Bgi attack but they kidnap her ..
just sounds repetitive to me and weakens the story.
why didn't they kidnap her first time then.

besides at that point she feels she can't trust anyone .. Why would she trust someone from tctf at that point and go to their apartment just to wash off and dress

Last edited by Samer (10/05/12 10:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 09:10

I have another suggestion that i think will please everyone.

first part ur apartment level with the shower scene or dining room or whatever, they try to kidnap/kill her but fail, (agents, and sarai and some easier enemies) ... before she's gone rogue. she has no time to research it further as the tctf is under attack by syndicate (perhaps the bgi shadow room characters plotted that after the failed attack to eliminate any ties that link them to the tctf)

second part she has learnt now about griffin's betrayl and who she is .. Right after the sc lab and kerr's death.

She remembers chung's research about the bgi and searches his apartment (brief searching place no attack here, can wash off here and find some clothes or we can make her an outfit which is torn down due to the acid ^_^ ) it could be some sort of puzzle to find where he hid the data, would allow her to use her high iq u spoke of, which leads her to the abandoned warehouse.. There she finds more info about the bgi and that griffin was also involved with them. And maybe finds a vehicle hidden there, that she uses to get to the tctf's roof like geyser suggested. Here would be great to have some bgi non human security, flying droids and guard dogs and some robots as the warehouse is abandoned but some security is left.

She attacks the tctf hq .. Confronts griffin .. When she escapes the vault the bgi attack her there with a small but powerful force, as they now know she knows too much about them. personally i feel would be a great place for the bgi assasins after some initial waves of bgi bots heavy and ninja bot ones and other bgi troopers (human ones). Griffin will help if she spared him. Would be a nice confrontation the assasin twins vs konoko and griffin.

now she attacks the bgi hq. First part as we discussed the business building (full of human guards, security droids, agents or troopers) (if she's kidnapped the business part will be skipped) then the underground bgi facility coming across the various characters we discussed. (most notably hydras and hammer in the underground cyborg lab facility, and shocker in a room full of electric generators) . There she might find casey kidnapped somehwere at the end in the underground facility and understand why griffin did what he did, he was being blackmailed with the kidnapped casey .. He's kept in prison there, guarded by Sarai She defeats her one final time and saves him.. and together they fight the iron demon would allow some nice coop play, to bring down the iron demon. Perhaps even setting player briefly as casey to fight off some bgi attackers while konoko takes on the iron demon.

think about it, before u disregard it .. This will allow all our ideas to be shown.
All types of enemies to be utilized in their proper setting : sarai and agents attacking the apartment, security droids in warehouse, troopers and assassin sent to kill her after tctf, bgi guards and troopers in bgi hq, bgi unique cyborgs in underground facility and final showdown with sarai and then iron demon. And will give griffin a more humane side will allow some diversity with the puzzle in chung's apartment and an opportunity for partnering with casey and a more elaborate way to get rid of iron demon .. For example one of them could go to activate some magnetic fork or whatever to disable its shield so the other can fight it.

Last edited by Samer (10/05/12 10:10)

Samer · 10/05/12 09:10

I edited my post a lot so please re-read it from begginig to end

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