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#51 23/9/12 20:30

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

In the oncc the body parts have material : cloth, armor .. What's the significance of this ? Does it affect damage in anyway ? .. And can this be used to make a character immune to weapons or melee ..


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#52 24/9/12 5:09

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

"cloth, armor .. Does it affect damage in anyway ?"
Originally: no.

"can this be used to make a character immune to weapons or melee .."
Proof of concepts are 'head shot mod' (weap) and 'muro plasma' (h2h); it is possible but you would have to mod *all* damage causing particle and anims...

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#53 24/9/12 7:40

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Well I think is better to use the method they used for mutant Muro.

I have different question:

IF i want to create a destructible environment, than what i need to use.Make a special exploding material for walls doors , with will "destroy" it, or should i use the char as killable not moving objects(the problem is that stupid 32 char limit on the one spawn point).The glass world could be used to, but What i want is to destroy an object with one go(not part by part - when not needed), and the best if i can add health to that object.
For example:
Destructible wall-when hit by X number of times it will collapse, Or when hit by proper particle(sbg. for example)
Destructible car- when hit by X number of times - explode
The door when hit by proper prt. collapse.
The furnitures(object with hp if possible) otherwise hit by proper prt. then destroyed

Image for example you get hit by heavy attack, and then fly by the destructible wall to the other room.
Or hit the car and then after some time it explode.

now some facts i know

The firs method need work in ONIA.
The question is : How many ONIA oni can handle?
The exploding cars could be done by proper prt.(even with wreckage)
Walls exactly the same(by special kill prt.)
Doors to.

The problem is only that the can't have hp bars, or be killed by one shot(ass object)

Last edited by ltemplar (24/9/12 7:42)

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#54 24/9/12 8:30

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Back then I tried to make use of the super shield but I failed to turn it off again. Try chr_invincible instead.

Char limit. Spawn those "walls" when you need them and delete them when not.  To clean the memory also delete corps by using trigger volumes.

ONIA limit? Dunno, but Gumby's exploding barrel works fine.

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#55 24/9/12 11:00

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

"Char limit. Spawn those "walls" when you need them and delete them when not.  To clean the memory also delete corps by using trigger volumes."

For all objects? If a made all furnitures this way how many other  characters I will be able to spawn? 2 or 3 ...ad most.

"ONIA limit? Dunno, but Gumby's exploding barrel works fine."

Yes ONIA limit.. how many exactly i can add to it new materials, before it will be unreadable by oni engine.
Other question is How many ONIAs the oni engine can handle before we got that beloved sentence by every moder?

Last edited by ltemplar (24/9/12 11:01)

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#56 24/9/12 12:23

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

"For all objects? If a made all furnitures this way how many other  characters I will be able to spawn? 2 or 3 ...ad most."
I didn't thought you were going to make all of them destructible. -- Why not use destructible object only at selected locations? Deux Ex 3 made that too and it was still fun: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgJUbPWX5yE


"ONIA limit.. how many exactly i can add to it new materials, before it will be unreadable by oni engine."
As I said "Dunno" = i don't know. However, I got Konoko to have more than 128 ONIA items so there should be plenty of space for you. In fact that array is a int32.
According to ONIE documentation, impacts and materials are also int32.

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#57 24/9/12 13:34

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Paradox i modified the Onia file to add orange hit impact for hayate and green for grey fury and bgi characters .. Using this with other packages with particles like new weapons causes a crash for me  sometimes it's other packages.. Is that related to a limit ? Can u test the onia file that comes with hayate package if u have time and see if it causes a crash for you ?
btw i was just thinking of setting the body material to shield  instead of cloth, guess that won't work .. Using boss shield needs to activate daodon i think to protect from melee and bullets, without daodon doesn't protect that much, muro and barabas for example are still affected by weapons, and going into daodon (makes invincible to melee and weapons) will require having some trams with flag remove shield or it will be turned on indefinetly., and what i want is to have him immune to weapons but not melee.

Last edited by Samer (24/9/12 13:36)


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#58 24/9/12 13:46

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

I have and finish deus ex 3 , but the way they create destructible walls is not exactly what i want. If we talking about references the X-men legends 2 or Marvel Ultimate Alliance will be similar more to what i propose here. Both games have simple destructible environment, without psychics...(something that can be mimic in ONI- only problem is the hp ,and one piece destruction)You simple punch, the object is destroyed. You trow a guy he smash the wall and fly trough it to another room..(off course proper wall not every).Simple, not needing a lots of psychic , and giving ton of fun.

Last edited by ltemplar (24/9/12 13:48)

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#59 24/9/12 13:48

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Can't u set it as glass material but color it opaque .. ? Will work like the glass breaking mod . (don't know if u know it, melee and thrown bodies break glass)

Last edited by Samer (24/9/12 13:49)


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#60 24/9/12 14:40

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

I know this.But I want that only the proper move or weapon projectile be able to break it..not all.
I will post the list:

glass- as it is
Wood/furnitures- breakable by heavy H2h move or,heavy prt. set into fire by plasma
Metal- breakable ony by heavy weapons , melted by plasma
Titanium/heavy wall- unbreakable
thin wall - breakable by heavy weapons or some moves(throws..heavy punches etc)
Concrete wall- breakable only by heavy weapons or moves(rhino charge.. rising fury mk2- ups i shouldn't say this.)

Thats all

Maybe we can create material depending dmg. Different armors..skins(daodan skin and special weapon that can easy kill.. wdg doing a lot more dmg. to robots...etc).

well i even create the list of all things need for creating this sytem

From my observation how we an make this system to work.. We must create additional 800+ materials.
Why?
Example

First konoko in light armor

head in light armor
chest in light armor
limbs in light armor

Adding skin impact modiffer

head in light armor+daodan
chest in light armor+daodan
limbs in light armor+daodan

For hits(only weapons)

10 normal weapons(all hits)

6*10=60 impacts

If we add more like robot skin

this will be 120 impacts

Human skin 240

if we add heavy armor
this will be (daodan+robot)
480

Etc.

The walls etc will be(only for thous 10 weapons)

50 additional impact modifiers.

Thats why i asking for how many additional impact(materials) ONIA can handle.
The head shot mod adding only 4 materials modifiers(2 the other 2 are similar)..and look at the impact tree there.

Thats why before i will try something that big I want to know if there will be no conflicts(know the limits) to simply not waste my time.

That is what we can do..

If we want to play with impacts..for improving oni.

For characters..make only skin impact (localiztion of hit is not needed in such a game)
This will reduce only to

-human skin
-daodan skin
-robot skin
-LSD/cyborg skin
-Armor
-Heavy armor
-Tank armor

To cover all possibilities for character impacts
and

glass- as it is
Wood/furnitures- breakable by heavy H2h move or,heavy prt. set into fire by plasma
Metal- breakable ony by heavy weapons , melted by plasma
Titanium/heavy wall- unbreakable
thin wall - breakable by heavy weapons or some moves(throws..heavy punches etc)
Concrete wall- breakable only by heavy weapons or moves(rhino charge.. rising fury mk2- ups i shouldn't say this.)
Shield material.

for all possible materials(some are in game , some need to be made)

Also reducing ammunition for weapons (or excluding some weapons from impact tree) will also be helpful.

Think about it.

Last edited by ltemplar (24/9/12 15:18)

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#61 24/9/12 15:16

EdT
Moderator

Re: Various particle modification projects

Itemplar: Obviously, no one has tried this before on the scale you are thinking.  I would suggest start simple and experiment with the walls first.

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#62 24/9/12 15:23

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Yes the walls will be the good start...

But this also will require..others to modify their chars if I want to change materials for chars- different ONIA.not to mention all ONCC to work with that system.

This could be community effort not only mine.Thats why I post so many questions here.

Another thing with is to overcomplicated is the skill modifier in ONCC. Do We really need all weapons to be on separate list?
The list could be much simpler lIke:

-light weapons
-heavy weapons
-snipers
-explosives
-energy

Its 5 instead of 10+skills for weapons(if somebody can handle well Campbell equalizer, then handling black adder will be piece of cake for him- think about augmented cyborgs the recoil for them can be even reduced to "nothing" flag).This could create specializations..and make oni more interesting.

Last edited by ltemplar (24/9/12 15:33)

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#63 24/9/12 16:15

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

mmm for me it seems more effort than it's worth .. especially for compatibility issues, needing to modify all character packages and packages that modify onia is much. for ur idea of breakable walls the glass thing should be enough. for exploding cars also use same principle of exploding barrel or a make it a death particle like iron demon and shinibot making the car a static character or by using scripts .. having set fire by plasma and then blow it up and each weapon breaks something different is a bit too much .. even new games never go into that much detail.

Last edited by Samer (24/9/12 16:16)


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#64 24/9/12 16:29

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

"even new games never go into that much detail."

Disagree.

"especially for compatibility issues"
Only for char modification walls have nothing to do with this.

"for ur idea of breakable walls the glass thing should be enough"
No. Braking wall with smg projectile will look rather stupid.

"or exploding cars also use same principle of exploding barrel or a make it a death particle like iron demon"- if the limit for chars will be increased then yes. Otherwise the number of exploding cars will be drastically limited(having only few will be not worth it)

I don't say that this will be fast project.

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#65 24/9/12 16:42

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

where are u going to put all of these cars and walls and stuff anyway .. as i understood this is for the bgi level, or u want to modify the game original levels ?

besides tctf parking lot and beginning of airport i don't see much opportunity to put exploding cars in original game or collapsing walls ..

and for new levels simply don't put an smg in the level tongue kdn .. but yeah i guess you could make something like the glass breaking mod with a new material for the breakable walls .. as Ed said expirement with that on a smale scale .. No need for titanium and concrete and all that at first just try making a breakable wall with sbg or a new special weapon. Or throws, only add the new breaking wall particle to konoko's tgt throw for ur level.
For cars as characters even if u increase character limit having so much particle explosions at a time will slow the game a lot u can see that when several shinibots or madbombers blow up at same time.

Last edited by Samer (24/9/12 23:02)


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#66 25/9/12 3:45

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

From my experience.
It's better to create such solid framework at the beginning, than later constantly upgrading it(making 150+ updates and telling peoples to modify theirs because you add an update- believe me i had this discussion with my NEP team over 100+ times so i know what I'm talking about here)
BTW. this framework can be used by others afterwards for creating things they can only have dreamed before. Like anti daodan weapon or exploding barrel(even your anti bullet armor).This is not only for my mods but general framework

Another question
Do oni engine tolerate negative numbers for impact modifier.If yes then instead creating for all weapons imp. mod. we can simply create few like:

1 bullet
2 explosion
3 heat
4 shock
5 poison
6 anti daodan
7 eating?(living cell)

Then simply add negative numbers for all thous for the material modifiers and then add negative numbers in the impact mod. For example:
-Campbell equalizer do 15 dmg the light armor reduce it by 5 then overall dmg is 10 for char. The smg do 8 reduction give you 3 etc.
-Armor do -10 reduction then smg do 0 Campbell only 5
-Heavy Armor do 20 so all bullet based weapons are useless..etc(thats your solution Samer)

Thats what I'm talking about.
A solid framework that can be used by others in theirs projects too.

Regarding the questions:

1)-ODF_TC main purpose is to recreate original levels to be more fun to play.Making framework working with more than only mine mod will be better in global term(for compatibility issue for example).
2)New levels will have all thous additions.I will even post documentation how to create all thous futures without lot of work.If i will succeeded.
3)Reduce the number of the particle then.

example(form E2160-NEP mod - screens from my private collection showing possible space battle )

One of this explosion have only 60-80 prt. for the unit, and 10-20 for bullet explosions so..
screen286r.jpg

Thats why this goes on 30 fps without problems
screen294.jpg

This only shows, that even the newest games have problems when to many prt you have on one screen.(original 2160 exp have 400-600 prt for unit and the 60-150 for bullet exp. and lag as hell)

Reducing some will be better choice. Not all explosion need to be like iron demon. Some can be reduced greatly.

Last edited by ltemplar (25/9/12 7:06)

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#67 25/9/12 7:57

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Samer wrote:

i modified the Onia file to add orange hit impact for hayate and green for grey fury and bgi characters .. Using this with other packages with particles like new weapons causes a crash for me  sometimes it's other packages

I installed several packages including Gray Fury, Hayate, BGI and new weapons and game didn't crashed.
Please post an exact list of installed mods that make the game crash for you. (Make sure you don't play with additional level archives (plugins).)

Last edited by paradox-01 (25/9/12 7:58)

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#68 25/9/12 11:37

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Paradox-01

I have a question regarding the head shot mod.

If there is possibility to add minus value for impact emitter? for example dmg. for armor=0 in the mod.. but what if you add -4 .If this will reduce dmg. coming from bullet particle like w1_tap_p01 from 12 to 8?because from that talk: http://wiki.oni2.net/OBD_talk:BINA/ONIE … _head_hits I can't verify it.

Last edited by ltemplar (25/9/12 11:39)

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#69 25/9/12 12:25

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

I don't know where you have seen armor=0 nor where you want to put -4. What xml tag?

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#70 25/9/12 12:33

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

w3_phr        x        M10 S1    10    3-5
        head        +4    +4    +3
        unprotected    +2    +2    +1
        helmet        +2    +1    +2

here for example i don't see armor so I presume that it's value is 0

Where i want to put -4 value?

For example here: in the BINA3RAPw5hitarmor_e01

<Events>
            <HitCharacter>
                <DamageChar>
                    <Damage>-4</Damage> - instead of 0 or other positive value.
                    <StunDamage>3</StunDamage>
                    <KnockBack>0.8</KnockBack>
                    <DamageType>5</DamageType>
                    <SelfImmune>1</SelfImmune>
                </DamageChar>
                <Die />
            </HitCharacter>
        </Events>
    </Particle>
</Oni>

Last edited by ltemplar (25/9/12 12:37)

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#71 25/9/12 12:49

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Try it .. If onisplit converts the xml then u can, if it fails to convert then u can't.


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#72 25/9/12 12:49

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

I think we tried this before without success. I rechecked the idea for you with pistole particle: I changed 8 and 10 to -8 and -10, the character still take damage. So: negative damage is not possible.

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#73 25/9/12 12:54

ltemplar
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

Understand..Well then this will be a lot more work (adding more emitters and bullet types like smg, hmg, hgun, etc)-check the table

Here is the table..for the Framework:

dmgtable.jpg

GB- going by-if posible
UB- Unbreakable
B- breakable
EXP- exploding

The minus values are for calculating overall dmg(how many dmg i will need to remove from  weapons to have them work as the should)in the emitter part. (lets say that all normal weapons prts. will have then 0 values or minimal, then the dmg will be added to char by impact modifier)

Still i don't get yet how the shields are working- but I'm close

Last edited by ltemplar (25/9/12 13:01)

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#74 17/11/12 2:18

Samer
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

question ..
Ok the idea is to change mutant muro's electric particle color to green to use for hammer and shocker. (particle of his back crouch move)
it is w14_muro_e01 named blanka .. And link to p01 and p02 .. Changed the tint of those and names and everything .. However stayed red in game except for a little part of the effect became green, turns out the red part we see is the impact particle when hitting wall/floor or when hitting characters .. So in the particle file of p01 i got this :

<HitWall>
                <ImpactEffect>
                    <ImpactType>w14_muro</ImpactType>
                    <ImpactModifier>0</ImpactModifier>
                </ImpactEffect>
                <Die />
            </HitWall>
            <HitCharacter>
                <ImpactEffect>
                    <ImpactType>w14_muro</ImpactType>
                    <ImpactModifier>0</ImpactModifier>
                </ImpactEffect>
                <Die />
            </HitCharacter>

and this in the BINAONI.. (file whose name i get always wrong the big file with all impacts)

<Impact Name="w14_muro">
            <Material Name="Default">
                <ImpactEffect>
                    <Component>Impact</Component>
                    <Modifier>Heavy</Modifier>
                    <Sound>
                        <Name />
                        <AICanHear>true</AICanHear>
                        <AISoundType>Danger</AISoundType>
                        <AISoundRadius>200</AISoundRadius>
                    </Sound>
                    <Particles>
                        <Particle>
                            <Name>w14_muro_x01</Name>
                            <Orientation>3</Orientation>
                            <Location>1</Location>
                            <Offset>0.2</Offset>
                        </Particle>
                    </Particles>
                </ImpactEffect>
            </Material>
            <Material Name="Character">
                <ImpactEffect>
                    <Component>Impact</Component>
                    <Modifier>Any</Modifier>
                    <Sound>
                        <Name />
                        <AICanHear>true</AICanHear>
                        <AISoundType>Danger</AISoundType>
                        <AISoundRadius>200</AISoundRadius>
                    </Sound>
                    <Particles>
                        <Particle>
                            <Name>w14_muro_x02</Name>
                            <Orientation>3</Orientation>
                            <Location>5</Location>
                        </Particle>
                    </Particles>
                </ImpactEffect>
            </Material>
        </Impact>

so basically to change the color to green i'll have to edit the w14_muro_x0. Particles , rename them and add a new impact to the impacts file ..

Easy enough .. However cz other packages of mine also modify that file to add custom hit impacts, grn flash for grey fury and bgi and orange for hayate and hanako, both of which have higher pack numbers, so if i modify the impact file with this pack, they will overwrite it ...
So my question is can i change the impact effect of the p01 particle without modifiying the impacts file ?
Like in the p01 file
instead of the impact type that refers to the impact particle in the BINAONI.. File, can't i link the impact particle w14_muro_x01 directly in the p01 so i won't need to modify the impact file ? 
<HitCharacter>
                <ImpactEffect>
                    <ImpactType>w14_muro</ImpactType>
                    <ImpactModifier>0</ImpactModifier>
                </ImpactEffect>

Last edited by Samer (17/11/12 3:09)


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#75 17/11/12 10:46

paradox-01
Member

Re: Various particle modification projects

If you want to spawn a particle by another you might try ...

(p or compensator particle)

    <HitCharacter>
        <EmitParticles>
            <Emitter>0</Emitter> (first emitter is called emitter "0", second emitter is "1", etc.)
            <Particles>1</Particles>
        </EmitParticles>
    </HitCharacter>


... and use w14_muro_x01 in the emitter, something like ...

(p or compensator particle)

        <Emitters>
            <Emitter>
                <Class>w14_muro_x01</Class> (or w14_muro_sam_compensator)
                <Flags>IncreaseParticleCount TurnOffAtTreshold</Flags>
                <TurnOffTreshold>1</TurnOffTreshold>
                <Probability>1</Probability>
                <Copies>1</Copies>
                <LinkTo />
                <Rate>
                    <Instant />
                </Rate>
                <Position>
                    <Point />
                </Position>
                <Direction>
                    <Straight />
                </Direction>
                <Speed>
                    <Uniform>
                        <Speed>0</Speed>
                    </Uniform>
                </Speed>
                <Orientation>LocalPosY</Orientation>
                <OrientationUp>LocalPosZ</OrientationUp>
            </Emitter>
        </Emitters>


The ONIE part contained ...
                            <Orientation>3</Orientation>
                            <Location>1</Location>
                            <Offset>0.2</Offset>
If you are lucky it will just work without that. If not, you would have to compensate* that part using the "correct settings" (whatever those are...).
* You maybe need an additional file between the others. So final hierarchy might look this:

w14_muro_e01_sam
    w14_muro_p01_sam
    w14_muro_p02_sam
        w14_muro_sam_compensator (emitter flag "InitiallyOn")
            w14_muro_x01


Could work, could fail, I don't know.

Last edited by paradox-01 (17/11/12 10:47)

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