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#1 15/8/12 12:55

Samer
Member

Konoko HD Problems discussion

well i'm not sure this is a mod worth releasing, it's basically retexturing of the Konoko HD by Leucha, but since several members have mentioned a blackops konoko, I thought we should have one, that will also fit well with the improved models and new blackops textures that i released with the character retexture project.

SNAG-0191.jpg

however since this is based on Konoko HD model it will have the same problems of causing buffer overflow and hit impacts disappearing sometimes, and forcefield not covering arms ..

I can try to decrease polycount on the expense of detail, i can do that by 2 main ways : use parts from the original non HD model, example mid, foot, neck, fist hopefully that brings the polycount down enough to avoid the problems but still look good .. But it might require retexturing again as the old model and new one have different UV maps ..
Another option is : I can make konoko wear a light blackops helmet without the goggles, her face will show but most of her hair won't, allowing me to drastically decrease polycount on head.
or i might just release as is tongue hoping one day there will be engine or bink32 or whatever update that solves the HD model problems .. Especially since this wasn't on the list of my main projects ..

what do u think i should do tongue

Last edited by Samer (22/8/12 23:17)


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#2 15/8/12 13:12

Knox
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Maybe try to decrease polycount around the waist and back?


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#3 16/8/12 1:26

AdamBast
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

if you decrease the polygons on te back then you did nothing.
during playing you rarely see konoko from the front, mostly it's the back that you see.


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#4 16/8/12 19:43

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

mm anyone interested in this if i continue it ? Or shall i just drop this project.


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#5 16/8/12 20:51

Knox
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Please continue it. It looks great.


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#6 17/8/12 4:46

s10k
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Maybe decrease the polygons trying to maintain a good aspect would be a good option. Please continue with it.

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#7 19/8/12 12:38

AdamBast
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

make a nice ass and thighs, and leave the rest

just kidding smile


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#8 19/8/12 19:14

kyletm57
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

I think a black ops Konoko would be awesome, please continue with it.


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#9 20/8/12 14:41

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Anyone knows what's the polycount or vertexes target of the entire model ? I reduced them a lot but I'm still getting the no arms forcefield thing :\


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#10 20/8/12 15:18

Iritscen
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Samer wrote:

Anyone knows what's the polycount or vertexes target of the entire model ? I reduced them a lot but I'm still getting the no arms forcefield thing :\

http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 106#p41106

However, I'm not sure what precisely causes the issue with the forcefield.  You can try going below the halfway point of the poly/vertex limit if you aren't already, but I'm not sure that it's that simple.


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#11 20/8/12 15:42

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

mm getting there Oni%25202012-08-20%252023-22-00-65.jpg
polygon reduction seems to be the problem .. I'm ok with the forcefield thing it's the disappearing hit impacts that bugs me :\


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#12 21/8/12 4:58

Gumby
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

You more levels of detail or else Oni can't handle it. Look at the original models. If you set your quality to low enough (I think there is a BSL variable, chr_lod or something) you can see that the models get blockier. I think the issue has to be with vertex buffers overflowing. Oni was made with fixed buffers that weren't designed to hold such large models. So when you try to render a model twice (once for the model, once for the forcefield model) or show particles effects which use a few hundred vertexes temporarily, it craps out and you will oftentimes get an error message in the dev console.


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#13 21/8/12 5:11

Alloc
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Weren't the buffers increased by the Daodan? How about increasing them by a lot (should be no problem for more modern hardware than what we got back in 2001 wink )?


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#14 21/8/12 6:18

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Gumby wrote:

You more levels of detail or else Oni can't handle it.

you mean i should add more LODS ? but aren't lower LODs going to be used by the AI and not the player ?

Alloc wrote:

Weren't the buffers increased by the Daodan? How about increasing them by a lot (should be no problem for more modern hardware than what we got back in 2001 wink )?

someone said before, it would slow the game down, although we don't need to increase it a lot ! I mean we're on the limit we just need to increase it a little bit more than it currently is sad ! Gumby any chance u're be willing to try to increase it a little bit more ? just enough to solve our HD konoko problem .. Adding LODS is fine, but it's not going to be easy and will negatively affect the graphics which makes having HD models useless .. and going on it will much better for us to increase it so we can use better looking models, and again we don't need to increase it much ..

Last edited by Samer (21/8/12 7:48)


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#15 21/8/12 7:30

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Ah, yes, Gumby's suggestion sounds correct.  Rather than changing Oni with the Daodan DLL, I would suggest making some lower LOD models and then testing them in-game; there might be no visible difference to the player because I think the lower-LOD model might be used just for the shield.  The console command "chr_show_lod" will tell you the LOD of the player character, which you can use to confirm that no detail is being lost in the actual model.


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#16 21/8/12 7:50

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Making LODS manually is done by lowering the polygon count on the model right ? that's what I'm doing .. it's not easy :\ I'm manually welding points and removing polygons and edges .. using automatic polygon reduction gives ugly results ..
and it's not only the shield problem it's the hit impacts and contrails causing buffer overflow and flickering
making like 4 models for each model doesn't sound easier than just increasing the limit a litttleeee bit

the show lod command gave me bool = 0 what's that ?

Last edited by Samer (21/8/12 7:57)


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#17 21/8/12 10:15

Striker
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

I must be the only one on this forum who doesn't like the custom HD textures and models for characters... Not to say you aren't good at it, I just think that the classic vanilla textures and models are a part of the game that cannot be taken away or replaced. Either way, you still did a great job. Keep it up!


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#18 21/8/12 12:00

Alloc
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Samer wrote:

the show lod command gave me bool = 0 what's that ?

Probably means that it's not a command but a bool variable so you have to use it with "show_lod = 1" (or whatever the name was) wink


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#19 21/8/12 13:10

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Striker wrote:

I must be the only one on this forum who doesn't like the custom HD textures and models for characters... Not to say you aren't good at it, I just think that the classic vanilla textures and models are a part of the game that cannot be taken away or replaced. Either way, you still did a great job. Keep it up!

that's the beauty of AE packages u can install what u want and not install what u don't want .. i don't care for new weapons or blood for example.
Alloc thanks but if i type that doesn't it force the model to become LOD 1, while what i want is for it to show what LOD it currently is. I'll try it though


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#20 21/8/12 16:27

Iritscen
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Samer wrote:

Making LODS manually is done by lowering the polygon count on the model right ? that's what I'm doing .. it's not easy :\ I'm manually welding points and removing polygons and edges .. using automatic polygon reduction gives ugly results ..

Why not just use the existing lower-LOD models from Oni?

the show lod command gave me bool = 0 what's that ?

It's telling you that currently the LOD display is off.  The command you want is "chr_show_lod = 1".


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#21 21/8/12 17:33

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Why not just use the existing lower-LOD models from Oni?

cause the HD model and the original game models have different UV Maps .. textures on the lower LODS won't fit and look distorted ..


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#22 21/8/12 19:04

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Oni%25202012-08-22%252002-59-11-03.jpg

I've managed to decrease polycount enough on the body .. blackops caren has no problem with the forcefield or hit impacts anymore ..
while konoko has no problem with the forcefield anymore, it does cover all arms, but doing moves that have motion blur while wearing forcefiled make it flicker and hit impacts disappear (higher polycount on head, although i've managed to decrease it from 1572 triangle, 943 point to 1412 triangle 853 point )

I've lowered the polycount on all original HD body parts by at least 50 % of what they were, even lower on shoulders and fists cz i used the old model parts for these .. One last try is trying the feet from the older model .. will have to retexture them and won't look as good as these ..

if that doesn't work I'll either release it as is hoping in the future we would increase the limit just a little bit more .. or else i'll use the old head which i'm not happy to do :\

Last edited by Samer (21/8/12 19:13)


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#23 21/8/12 19:53

Iritscen
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Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

Okay, but just to be clear, you're using the lower-poly model as the lower LOD of the original HD model, right?  All as part of the same TRBS?


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#24 21/8/12 20:17

Samer
Member

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

No, the one u see in the screenshot is much lower polygon count than the original HD, i'm not gonna use the original HD at all anymore..
this one the lower poly is now the : high poly one tongue and even now with being much lower poly than the original HD it's still causing buffer overflow .. that's why i think it's important to increase the limit ... I've even managed to decrease the head count  to 1035 triangle, 652 point and still causing buffer overflow and disappearing hit impacts when wearing forcefield and doing a move with motionblur .. the forcefield covers the arms now though

i'll make an even lower LOD using the old head ..

EDIT : question
chr_show_lod = 1 gave me int32 = 1 .. what does that mean sad

EDIT 2: i made 4 other lods using the vanilla lods of konoko-generic, used the head, shoulders and fists from them, cz the other parts don'h have same uvs as the ones i used in the HD, so now i have 5 lods .. Lod 5 highest uses the head i made from leuchas model after modifying it and lowering it to 1020 polygon, lod 4 uses vanilla's lod 5 head, fists and shoulder, lod 3 uses those of vanilla's lod 4, lod 2 uses those of vanilla's lod 3, and lod 1 uses those of vanillas lod 2 ..
problem is in game it rarely ever uses the lod 5 that i made even as player, it appears then immediately switches to lod 4 ..
I tried setting lod 4 link also to the lod 5 .. Same thing .. As if the game prefers using the lower lod always, how can i make it to use the high lod always except when wearing forcefield


EDIT 3 : why are there 5 links in the xml but in game only 4 lods ?, seriously we need more tutorials on the wiki :\

Last edited by Samer (22/8/12 3:22)


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#25 22/8/12 7:20

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Konoko HD Problems discussion

I know the UV map is different, but it shouldn't matter because Oni almost always draws characters at LOD 5 -- the forcefield will use the lower LOD, but it won't be noticeable at all that its UV map is different since it's only got the shield texture.


that's why i think it's important to increase the limit ... I've even managed to decrease the head count  to 1035 triangle, 652 point and still causing buffer overflow and disappearing hit impacts when wearing forcefield and doing a move with motionblur .. the forcefield covers the arms now though

Well, motion blur is infrequent, so that sounds good enough to me, but I'm certainly not going to tell Gumby that he can't raise the buffer size using the Daodan DLL.  It's just that then we have to ask Feral to raise it on the Mac side... and where do we stop?  If we raise it for a couple existing mods, the next modder will ask us to raise it a little more for their mod.  Oni's engine isn't optimized well enough for such high-poly characters to begin with.

chr_show_lod = 1 gave me int32 = 1 .. what does that mean sad

Samer, you've set variables before on the console line, haven't you?  That's just the standard feedback telling you it accepted your command.

problem is in game it rarely ever uses the lod 5 that i made even as player, it appears then immediately switches to lod 4 ..

Okay, that's peculiar.  Let's investigate this some more.  I'll have to think about what might cause that.  Is this happening without the force field on?

why are there 5 links in the xml but in game only 4 lods ?, seriously we need more tutorials on the wiki :\

It's just that Bungie West didn't see a point in making 5 separate models for each character.  They generally only made 3 models, IIRC.  LODs 1-2 might be set to the low-detail model, LODs 3-4 to the mid-detail model, and then the highest-detail model would be linked to LOD 5 in the TRBS.


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