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#26 9/12/11 18:01

Gumby
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

VAC bans only affect the game engine that you get banned on, and only multiplayer. Not once has there been an instance of other games being banned, nor single player games being banned. EA's Origin is a different story, however.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#27 9/12/11 18:31

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

TOCS wrote:
Iritscen wrote:
TOCS wrote:

Prove me wrong then? Ones gotta have a strange mindset to even come up with such an idea in the first place. :\

What?  I don't really understand what idea you're talking about or what I'm supposed to prove.

If I've no idea of what I'm talking about, at least prove me wrong.

If we're talking about your bizarre assertions about Mac games costing twice as much and requiring certification and what-not, there are no facts there for me to even argue with, so I can only shrug.  Can you find a single link to back up those statements?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#28 9/12/11 18:35

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Gumby wrote:

VAC bans only affect the game engine that you get banned on, and only multiplayer. Not once has there been an instance of other games being banned, nor single player games being banned. EA's Origin is a different story, however.

Fair enough, although VAC still makes me nervous.  Mistakes have been made before.  Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I prefer just owning a game on a disc that comes in a box, and where my purchases don't have to be approved online by the publisher before I can play.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#29 9/12/11 20:33

Valkyrur
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Iritscen wrote:
Gumby wrote:

VAC bans only affect the game engine that you get banned on, and only multiplayer. Not once has there been an instance of other games being banned, nor single player games being banned. EA's Origin is a different story, however.

Fair enough, although VAC still makes me nervous.  Mistakes have been made before.  Maybe I'm old-fashioned, but I prefer just owning a game on a disc that comes in a box, and where my purchases don't have to be approved online by the publisher before I can play.

Valve is a community oriented company, maybe even moreso than Bungie. They have proven time and time again that they have great customer support

Trust me, Valve is not going to pull an EA on you, unless that is you are doing things with malicious intent, for example buying a game and then quickly doing a chargeback on it to try and get it at no expense, or hacking in multiplayer games. Those are ban worthy and I have no respect for idiots who do those.

EDIT:

And to clear up the thing about games getting deactivated if you violate EULA.

Steam can't scan your game for files being modified that shouldn't unless you manually tell it to, and even then, all that does is automatically restore modded files to original unmodded state, as a backup against having to reinstall games whole if files get corrupted. The only thing that can scan files without consent (technically you do consent when you accept the EULA) is VAC, and that can only check .EXEs and .DLL files for multiplayer games only.

VAC cannot shut you out of singleplayer, or even completely out of multiplayer (With exception of MW2, but why would you want that game?), as servers are not required to use VAC's blacklists. VAC is only there as a convenience system for server admins who choose to use it.

Last edited by Valkyrur (9/12/11 20:39)


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#30 9/12/11 20:51

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Yeah, I can't really disagree with you.  The truth is that I've never been all that clear on what happens when you get VAC-banned or suspended, because it's never happened to me and I don't learn a lot when I look for posts on the Internet about it.  And I generally trust Valve, but back when I played TF2, I always had a fear that some random glitch in my Internet would sic VAC on me (and even though it's optional, it seemed that 95% of servers used it; I also wanted to play on those servers to avoid cheaters).  If I lost my accumulated stuff in a game like that for any reason, I'd never be willing to start over again.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#31 9/12/11 21:15

Valkyrur
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Yeah, and just for future reference, the only reliable information on VAC is information that Valve has published themselves, as a lot of people in the hacking/cheating communities like to spread fear-mongering about VAC so that the less informed legitimate players try to start an outcry to get rid of VAC fearing it is out to get them.


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#32 9/12/11 22:42

Dirk Gently
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

TOCS wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:

Forced in the sense that you cannot use your normal browser. Also if you read the post instead of taking that one part out of context you would see I am talking about standardizing their shitty graphics library smile

Standards and being enclosed is what defines Apple products. I don't think the usual PC enthusiasts wants to be depending on a defined standard like that. Why do you think games for Mac are released years after the PC release, and costs the double amount of money? It's because Apple needs certification on those games before being integrated. If everyone had that kind of mindset, there'd be no innovation without approval. No thank you, but I like my games out on time.

tl;dr: Standardizing is generally bad. Enforced rule sets will make innovation as we know it obsolete.

Oh you mean, closed source like using an open source core of an OS, an open source browser which they contribute back to, and open standard graphics library.

Oh yes, I can totally see how apple is closed source.

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#33 9/12/11 23:36

Valkyrur
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Dirk Gently wrote:
TOCS wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:

Forced in the sense that you cannot use your normal browser. Also if you read the post instead of taking that one part out of context you would see I am talking about standardizing their shitty graphics library smile

Standards and being enclosed is what defines Apple products. I don't think the usual PC enthusiasts wants to be depending on a defined standard like that. Why do you think games for Mac are released years after the PC release, and costs the double amount of money? It's because Apple needs certification on those games before being integrated. If everyone had that kind of mindset, there'd be no innovation without approval. No thank you, but I like my games out on time.

tl;dr: Standardizing is generally bad. Enforced rule sets will make innovation as we know it obsolete.

Oh you mean, closed source like using an open source core of an OS, an open source browser which they contribute back to, and open standard graphics library.

Oh yes, I can totally see how apple is closed source.

It's close enough to closed source when commercial software developers have to get Apple certification.

The Apple of the Marathon, Halo, and Oni days is long gone. The new Apple that we know today is a control freak, much like Microsoft is with Xbox Live.

Last edited by Valkyrur (9/12/11 23:37)


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#34 10/12/11 6:16

TOCS
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Iritscen wrote:
TOCS wrote:
Iritscen wrote:
TOCS wrote:

Prove me wrong then? Ones gotta have a strange mindset to even come up with such an idea in the first place. :\

What?  I don't really understand what idea you're talking about or what I'm supposed to prove.

If I've no idea of what I'm talking about, at least prove me wrong.

If we're talking about your bizarre assertions about Mac games costing twice as much and requiring certification and what-not, there are no facts there for me to even argue with, so I can only shrug.  Can you find a single link to back up those statements?

I've worked short while in the business once. I don't really want to spend hours searching for reading material, of all the FAQs and agreements Apple have created. I can only speak of what I've encountered in real life.
We once got a shipment of Mac games that apparently had been shipped wrong (we didn't have enough shelf space). I was surprised to see it being games released at least 2 - 5 years ago on PC, so I asked one of my colleagues if he'd knew something. He told me that games released for Macs were usually delayed because of certifications, shelf space and standards which was essential, apparently.

I thought it sounded logic, but apparently not? Do you actually have anything that can disprove this? I can see any other reasons to why Mac games are overpriced and delayed then.



Dirk Gently wrote:
TOCS wrote:
Dirk Gently wrote:

Forced in the sense that you cannot use your normal browser. Also if you read the post instead of taking that one part out of context you would see I am talking about standardizing their shitty graphics library smile

Standards and being enclosed is what defines Apple products. I don't think the usual PC enthusiasts wants to be depending on a defined standard like that. Why do you think games for Mac are released years after the PC release, and costs the double amount of money? It's because Apple needs certification on those games before being integrated. If everyone had that kind of mindset, there'd be no innovation without approval. No thank you, but I like my games out on time.

tl;dr: Standardizing is generally bad. Enforced rule sets will make innovation as we know it obsolete.

Oh you mean, closed source like using an open source core of an OS, an open source browser which they contribute back to, and open standard graphics library.

Oh yes, I can totally see how apple is closed source.

Now you're just nitpicking. roll Why do you even bother when you know it's bogus to prove me wrong? If you look at both companies, being Microsoft and Apple respectively, you'll find that the average Apple product is enclosed to the rules made by Apple. For instance, every app released for iOS needs to be run through a verification process, in which most is being sorted out because Apple have their own communistic take on standards. Try and find any Microsoft or Google product, for that matter, that works like this. :\

Last edited by TOCS (10/12/11 6:17)


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#35 10/12/11 8:14

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Mac games are delayed behind the Windows releases because the original developers/publishers don't see enough money in the Mac platform to make a simultaneous build.  They leave it up to porting houses like Feral and MacPlay, who have to negotiate for rights, and who are much smaller than the original studios, so by the time they strike a deal and get the game building on the Mac, some time has naturally passed.

To use one game as an example (because I'm not willing to spend the time looking up a bunch of games just to disprove something a know-it-all guy told you once), Batman: Arkham Asylum came out last month for Macs.  Feral is selling it for $40.  When it came out for PCs in 2009 it cost $50, and $60 on the PS3.

If by "certification" you mean paying $99 a year to be a Mac or iOS developer, that's a fee for using the developer programs and support that Apple offers.  The idea is that Apple doesn't need a million hack programmers sending in apps every year for them to sift through, so a small barrier to entry is a good thing.  If you make any money at all from your app, then the $99 is worth it.  And I really don't believe that you're holding up Google and Microsoft as superior role models in software considering how much malware Windows and Android have.  Ever think about *why* those platforms have malware?


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#36 10/12/11 9:25

TOCS
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Iritscen wrote:

Mac games are delayed behind the Windows releases because the original developers/publishers don't see enough money in the Mac platform to make a simultaneous build.  They leave it up to porting houses like Feral and MacPlay, who have to negotiate for rights, and who are much smaller than the original studios, so by the time they strike a deal and get the game building on the Mac, some time has naturally passed.

To use one game as an example (because I'm not willing to spend the time looking up a bunch of games just to disprove something a know-it-all guy told you once), Batman: Arkham Asylum came out last month for Macs.  Feral is selling it for $40.  When it came out for PCs in 2009 it cost $50, and $60 on the PS3.

If by "certification" you mean paying $99 a year to be a Mac or iOS developer, that's a fee for using the developer programs and support that Apple offers.  The idea is that Apple doesn't need a million hack programmers sending in apps every year for them to sift through, so a small barrier to entry is a good thing.  If you make any money at all from your app, then the $99 is worth it.  And I really don't believe that you're holding up Google and Microsoft as superior role models in software considering how much malware Windows and Android have.  Ever think about *why* those platforms have malware?

I don't want to pay this fee when I already bought the product. It's mine. I should be able to do what ever the hell I want with it. I don't want to be restricted by Apple and their crazy marketing technique. And that's why this question is a lot more relevant: Why do you think Windows and Android is the primary target for virus? It wouldn't make any sense to spend time on such a narrow audience like Apple. It's literally not worth it.

The average Apple consumer is just following the feeding hand whenever a new product is released. They don't care. As long as it's simple, shiny and the complexity threshold can be divided by zero, they'll buy it. That's also the reason I don't get why people like you are even considering running going for a Mac. neutral It's for the masses; the usual mainstream prestige way of thinking.

Anyway I'm out of here. Neither of any of us are going to change our opinion. The discussion is pretty pointless.

Last edited by TOCS (10/12/11 9:27)


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#37 10/12/11 10:38

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

TOCS wrote:

I don't want to pay this fee when I already bought the product. It's mine. I should be able to do what ever the hell I want with it. I don't want to be restricted by Apple and their crazy marketing technique.

Notice the word "developer" in my post.  *You* don't have to pay anything extra as the user of the product.  I was trying to figure out what "fees" or "certification" you were talking about, so I brought up the cost of the developer program.  However, it seems that I still don't have any clue what you're really talking about.  Mac software doesn't cost more.

Why do you think Windows and Android is the primary target for virus? It wouldn't make any sense to spend time on such a narrow audience like Apple. It's literally not worth it.

On the contrary, hackers like challenges, and since Apple products are considered mostly virus-free, there's all the more incentive to attack them, so they do their best to hack Apple products.  Sometimes they even succeed, when it comes to exploiting a new product like Safari.  But when they try to hack the Unix underpinnings, they run into decades of protective measures.  Windows still doesn't have that kind of protection at its heart, after all these years.  And the reason that Android is so easy to hack is that users can install anything floating around the Net, whereas Apple screens the submitted apps for invasive code.  I'm baffled why you think this is a bad thing.  Also, the iOS has a large market share, so unlike Macs, there's no way that they're too obscure for hackers (although I already stated that "obscurity" is a false premise for the lack of viruses).

The average Apple consumer is just following the feeding hand whenever a new product is released. They don't care. As long as it's simple, shiny and the complexity threshold can be divided by zero, they'll buy it.

So, um, complexity is good?  What are you even arguing against?  That it's wrong to trust Apple to give us a good experience with a new product when we've seen how well the old ones work?  Have you even owned an Apple product and seen what a breath of fresh air it is to use?

That's also the reason I don't get why people like you are even considering running going for a Mac. neutral It's for the masses; the usual mainstream prestige way of thinking.

Now you've just stopped making sense altogether.  Prestige is good, isn't it?  It's part of what it means for a company to have built a good reputation by consistently turning out good products.  And if Apple is mainstream, then why did you say "It wouldn't make any sense to spend time on such a narrow audience like Apple" above?  You can't have it both ways.

Anyway I'm out of here. Neither of any of us are going to change our opinion. The discussion is pretty pointless.

Of course it's pointless.  You've stated nothing but commonly-circulated FUD that you heard from "some guy" or "the Internet" and don't care to form your own opinion based on experience.  You can't even make logically consistent statements within a single post because you're so determined to hate Apple.  I've used Windows extensively from 3.11 to 7, and I've seen how Android phones slow down and crash because of unstable environments created by a lack of constraints.  This was never an argument between equally-informed people at all, so you don't get to say "let's live and let live".  You're flat-out misinformed, and I won the argument because you left the argument without stating any facts.  Enjoy your fragmented operating systems.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#38 10/12/11 11:04

Dirk Gently
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

well shit, I have a post disproving TOCS, but then it logged me out. I agree with iritscen's post however.


PS guys, my little thing about steam: that is all based on the fact that I spent about 6 - 12 months working with valve on resolving some of these problems. Most of these problems still exist and are pretty bad software design. If you want to try proving me wrong about stuff I spent months investigating, please go ahead.

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#39 10/12/11 11:09

TOCS
Member

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

It's interesting to see your reaction. Quite predictable I must say. Whatever, I don't even have to prove anything to you at all, really. You're never going to change your mind. It's like trying to convince creationists that God is considered fiction. Believe whatever you want, I don't have words for the arrogance as well as ignorance displayed in this discussion. You won the discussion on big words, not actual facts or evidence. smile But at least you clarified the usual Mac consumer to be either of these:

1) Wannabe nerdy-types that are trying to prove how knowledgeable they are about everything in the tech world.
2) Wannabe hipster-types that are trying to prove how knowledgeable (read: trendy and/or “not trendy”) they are about everything in general.



I'm going on vacation now.


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#40 10/12/11 11:17

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: Has anyone here ever though of setting up a Steam group?

Well, I think we've all had our say.  We've also ruined Certified's thread.  The correct answer to his question was, "Actually, we already have one: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/oniganbatte/".


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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