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#26 13/2/11 5:37

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Yeah. I'll probably be making a few more moves unblockable, and some halfblockable (take damage, but no stunning). Right now I'm pretty sure both Konoko's running punch and the third hit of her ppp combo are unblockable, which is a bit WTF.


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#27 13/2/11 6:17

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Gumby wrote:

Right now I'm pretty sure both Konoko's running punch and the third hit of her ppp combo are unblockable, which is a bit WTF.


both are blockable and vulnerable even without the andrashi package. i've edited them numerous times when making new TRACS.


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#28 13/2/11 11:59

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Ha. I must have just been sucking last night against oxe then. neutral


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#29 13/2/11 12:38

Lithium
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

azewrath wrote:

What about unblockable attacks? I feel those attacks add variety other than the usual blocking and throwing as having those would force you to do an escape move.

For TCTF Swats, I kinda feel their punch combo is really pathetic, lacking damage and range. Overall, having lots of hp but unable to dish out dmg sounds pretty boring for me, unless he's meant to tank. Perhaps you can increase his overall damage to compensate for his lack of combo n mobility. Hit slow n hard


The SWATS do some good damage with the punch punch combo, it's only slow that's the problem
Also I'm sure some super moves like the Earthquaker will be removed sad

Last edited by Lithium (13/2/11 12:39)

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#30 13/2/11 12:41

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Hehe, ninja's can dodge Earthquaker wink

But yes, that is an overpowered move, although I would be sad if it were take out alltogether, it would be nice if it were simply nerfed. Like, when a player jumps, they can avoid it. Reduce the radius as well, etc.


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#31 13/2/11 12:47

Lithium
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

No i want teh overpowered earthquake >=(

Meh Elites are better >.>

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#32 13/2/11 14:11

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

One thing I noticed yesterday when there were three people: using throws can be a baaad idea. It opens you up to getting backbroken, and you end up taking more damage than you deal.


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#33 13/2/11 14:17

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

So in other words, you have to be able to judge when to throw, when it won't leave you vulnerable. Which does make things interesting smile


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#34 13/2/11 14:44

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

won't the characters become ... very similar and kinda boring if we keep removing their unique power strengths ? i mean it's cooler to have to play against earthquakers, throws and hitfot ouch then to just play against punches and kicks all the time ... the earthquaker for example hard to avoid but at the same time barabas's other moves are slow ... instead of removing powers why not add more resistance to the moves ex : better dodging  .. konoko's escape moves are semi vulnerable while for others except ninjas the escape moves are fully vulnerable.


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#35 13/2/11 14:54

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

We can't add resistance to Earthquaker. It's a bit silly and infinitely spammable, and unblockable because it's a particle attack. I'm not going to remove hitfoot. I'm going to make it so it isn't infinitely chainable. I'm not going to remove throws. I'm going to balance their grab ranges based on damage and such.


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#36 13/2/11 14:56

s10k
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Mukade wrote:

Hehe, ninja's can dodge Earthquaker wink

But yes, that is an overpowered move, although I would be sad if it were take out alltogether, it would be nice if it were simply nerfed. Like, when a player jumps, they can avoid it. Reduce the radius as well, etc.

I agree with this. Just reduce the radius and let players avoid it by jumping.

\edit

I read the above

Last edited by s10k (13/2/11 14:57)

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#37 13/2/11 15:02

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

ouh ok that sounds good smile but about the rolls and escape moves of other characters they are fully vulnerable maybe if u have time tackle that too. good luck ^_^


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#38 13/2/11 15:02

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

That may be a solution.


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#39 14/2/11 0:49

azewrath
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Actually I think all the original unblockable attacks work just fine.. Just the Earthquaker move seems kinda imbalanced. That way, Konoko wont have any unblockables though lol


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#40 14/2/11 16:03

Loser
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Regarding multiplayer hand to hand balancing:

Stun -> grab system. It was designed specially for multiplayer, to deal with grab spam. Spammer goes for stun, defender anticipates, breaks away and delivers punishment. Possible solution for honor duels.

Two vs one cheap infinite simple punch combo issue - probably mix in stagger mechanics somehow, so victim gets knockdowned if two enemies try this tactics. Or give first two punches from punch combo small enough damage to give victim enough time to somehow break away.

Special attacks - vulnerable windows at the beginning and at the end of these moves. I think there is enough rear throw punishment for anyone who would attempt to spam these.

Special hit responses (hit_jewels, hit_foot_ouch) - I have already given my two cents in the apropriate thread. Personally I would like to see these handled via extra anim_state with corresponding responses and options to perform quick recovery. That way attacker can incapaciate enemy and gain large frame advantage (but rear throw doable only with just-frame timing), yet attacker cannot spam victim to death by repeating special-hit-response-inducing move over and over.
Maybe link these directly to grabs, so if attacker goes for grab he does directly the grab and does not have to go through stun phase and give victim option to break away. Would encourage teamwork in some sense.

Get up situation - all attacks from getup should be vulnerable. All non-attack getup moves should have medicore invulnerability window, but they should not be completely invulnerable. All characters should have option to perform low getup attack (block low only) or high getup attack (block high only), to encourage guessplay and keep attackers on toes even around knockdowned enemy. Addition of roll left and roll right (press corresponding key to swiftly barrel roll to the side and stand up) would be a neat way to dodge incoming ground pound.

Ground grabs - for "brawlers": Elites, Tankers, Strikers, Elite TCTF cops. Some quick vale tudo or other maul (three mounted punches, headsmash, curbstomping, crotchstomping), to give these dogs advantage when enemy is knockdowned.

Usage of extra three-combos (pkp, kkp etc.) - for females, comguys, police officers, lite TCTF agents, to make them more cunning in a fight, maybe mixing high and low attacks.

Changing Earthquaker PAR3D to deal sprite based damage on touch, not creating general blast damage sphere, thus making it possible to jump over the shockwave.

Maybe more, But I think this Great wall of Text is great enough.
Loser

Last edited by Loser (14/2/11 16:09)


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#41 14/2/11 17:48

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

On fixing throws: I still think I can attempt to solve it by better setting states in which players cant throw and states in which players cannot be thrown.

Specials: Very few of them are unblockable, and they are all either slow or fairly weak.

Getups: I agree. Anyone based on the Striker TRAC already has these, with a low kick and a high punch (if i recall correctly)

Ground grabs - is that possible?

More x3 combos - Sure! More complexity isn't bad, the generic male TRAC definitely has room for expansion.

Earthquaker - I'm not sure if what you are saying is easy to do. But I would much prefer Barabus be given a normal Elite TRAC. I don't want separate character classes for each boss. Muro is a special case I have no idea what to do with him at the moment.


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#42 14/2/11 18:19

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Sounds like even more work cut out. I really should start making a list for myself, because there's opportunities for new TRAMs everywhere. One I would be most interested in would be an animation for the Grab. I remember seeing this in sort of a "proof of concept" stage, but was not refined at all. With a couple new TRAMs added to this concept, it might be alot better...?

@Ground Pounds/Grabs - I've noticed that even in SP, I think because of one of the updates in AE, it's very hard to pull off a ground pound because of the speed at which they recover, at which point they're invulnerable. If we could pull off ground grabs as well, it would certainly keep the grounded player guessing, as well as the assailant. "Should I try and pull off a low kick while recovering and risk being ground grabbed if I'm too late, or do I Side/Backroll to avoid being hit, but miss my opportunity to get him back. Basically, it would be a rock-paper-scissors situtation, which sounds intriguing. I think it's possible, I have an idea or two that might make it possible...


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#43 14/2/11 19:13

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Loser wrote:

Usage of extra three-combos (pkp, kkp etc.) - for females, comguys, police officers, lite TCTF agents, to make them more cunning in a fight, maybe mixing high and low attacks.
Loser

Gumby wrote:

More x3 combos - Sure! More complexity isn't bad, the generic male TRAC definitely has room for expansion.


i think Loser means the melee\combo id not the TRACS .. there's no pkp combo or kkp. so i think he means adding these variations in the tactics of the AI ... which doesn't really have an effect on multiplayer.
it wold be nice though if we could add new types of combos k_k_k_k ... p_k_k ... p_k_p etc ..


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#44 14/2/11 21:41

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

44    2C    PPK
45    2D    PKK
46    2E    PKP
47    2F    KPK
48    30    KPP
49    31    KKP
50    32    PK
51    33    KP


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#45 14/2/11 21:54

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Yeah, I do remember seeing those when looking at stuff for I think it was the Melee IDs, there are many unused combos, I guess the devs just didn't bother to fill them, or figured that it made things too complicated? Anyways, they're there...


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#46 14/2/11 22:10

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

yes that's what i mean these are in the melee ids ... used by AI .. but as a player urself u can use Punch, kick and then punch or 4 kicks or whatever ... but it's not a combo by itslef .. i mean in the tram u can't make a 4kick type while there's a 4punch type, i don't understand how changing the melee ids would help in online playing .. since the melee ids are used by Ai and in multiplayer character will be player controlled. the trac has a list of trams, it's a good idea to add some more moves to the male tracs .. maybe muakde can make some new kick throw for them tongue or i read somewhere abt making the comguy disarm a kick throw.


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#47 14/2/11 22:13

Mukade
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

nononono, you don't understand.

I stumbled across these while looking stuff up *about* melee IDs. These moves aren't actually included in the IDs, since there's no TRAM to go with them. I'm guessing one of the leet hackers around here found a list somewhere when Onisplit didn't exist for us mere mortals, all that hex stuff tongue

You're right, changing Melee ID's won't help online play (unless you want to make smarter opponents for co-op play), but I only brought them up because that's just what I happend to be looking up at the time


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#48 15/2/11 2:05

Gumby
Moderator

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Those aren't melee IDs, they are animation types: http://geyser.oni2.net/anim/type.txt

You should be able to set any animation to use them and they should come out just fine. They just need animations associated with them.


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#49 15/2/11 4:16

Samer
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

that is AWESOME big_smile so we can actually make new combos ^_^ other than ppp and ppk and kkk big_smile that gives us so many opportunities .. i just gave casey a pkp combo and it works ^^ wish i knew about that before !


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#50 15/2/11 10:30

Loser
Member

Re: Multiplayer Character Rebalancing Project

Ground grabs are possible, toyed with it a few years ago but there was no way to create new proper animations.

Make a new TRAM file, copy of some throw source, for example KONCOMthrow_fw_p. Change its name for example to KONCOMthrow_gnd_f. Do the same with throw target animation. Add to the TRAC file. Now you have extra animation pair in TRAC: KONCOMthrow_gnd_f, KONCOMthrow_gnd_f_tgt.

Next, in AnimTypes, there are unused types for double and triple directional punches (172 PF_PF, 173 PF_PF_PF). Bad and good news - these are defunct, you cannot perform double or triple directional attacks. BUT we have enough variability via range of 3-combos of punches and kicks, so why not to misuse these AnimTypes for something else.

So, in KONCOMthrow_gnd_f_tgt set its AnimType to be for example PF_PF. Also, set its AnimState to be FromState Fallen_back, ToState Fallen_back.
IMPORTANT !!! Remove all FromState shortcuts, otherwise this throw pair will probably mix in with standard throws !!!
At the end of this step, we have KONCOMthrow_gnd_f_tgt with no FromState shortcuts, with AnimType PF_PF and with FromState Fallen_back.
Good. Now head to KONCOMthrow_gnd_f. Go to the throw part, and look for AnimType of the target animation. Since it is a copy of a standard punch throw, there will be a link to the AnimType Thorwn1 if I recall correctly. Change it to...yes, PF_PF ^_^. Also set a bit larger throw range so you can test this feature with ease.

That's all. Pack files back to DAT/RAW/SEP format, go find some poor victim, knockdown him on back, position yourself so you are at its feet, facing him, press forward + punch. Wyipeedoo, there you go with ground grab in Oni ^_^.

For starters, get Muros front throw animation pair (leg breaker) and cut the beginning in XSI, so the animation begins with victim already on the ground. That way you get nice simple ground grab placeholder animation.

Some extra notes: When character is knockdowned, its "object" keeps standing up and oriented as if character was standing. That means to execute ground grabs you have to be facing directly the grounded opponent and stand at its feet (front grab) and at its head (rear grab) for fallen_back. Of course if we are talking about fallen_front, it's reversed - standing at fallen_fronted's character feet will result in rear grab, standing at its head will lead to front grab.
That is important as throw source animations share executing AnimTypes with standard throws. But if all AnimTypes and AnimSets are set correctly, there is no way for animation mismatches as throw source animations are picked according to proper throw target animations. And that is why these ground throw target anims should not contain any FromState shortcuts, only Fallen_back or Fallen_front FromStates.

Another Great Wall of Text ^_^.

P.S.: Hey Mukade, shorten Muro's leg grab anim, do this and post a video. Please. I would like to see this two years old idea finally alive, being done by next generation of Oni modders. Thanks ^_-

Last edited by Loser (15/2/11 10:48)


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