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#1 24/1/10 18:12

Iritscen
Moderator

To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

May I please slap you all in the face, just a little?  Here's a mod that came out several months ago:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOh3xYPrYF8

Remind you of anything?

Here's some gameplay.  You'll even note thermoptic camouflage being used at 5:40:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orScP0Zc1yQ

This was produced by six guys working at night and on weekends over four years.  The source code came from Half-Life, but all the content is fan-produced.


--Lessons to Learn--
I think we can take some lessons from this mod, in terms of setting a bar for ourselves.  It may be too much to expect that Oni will ever look this good (certainly not without replacing the OpenGL code), but it's still inspiring in the sense that it shows how much fun Oni multiplayer could be.  After all, we've got good gunplay, PLUS awesome melee.  It also shows us what it looks like when fans make something professional.  With a lack of external references for comparison, it's easy to lose sight of what constitutes fine work and whether our work is "ready for primetime".  I truly believe that we have talent enough in this community to produce something equally amazing -- at least, relative to a nine year-old game (yes, Oni turns nine in a few days!).


--Do I Live in a Glass House?--
Now, I hesitated to make the following post because I've been as inactive as anyone lately and I don't want to sound like a hypocrite who asks for more from others while he does nothing himself.  As a member of the AE Team, I feel like I first owe you all an explanation for my virtual absence.  While I've still been moderating the forum, I haven't done much of anything else for a while now.  Well, it's boring to hear myself talk about personal stuff, so let's just keep it short: "I was out of work for a long time, yada yada, I finally got a full-time job".

When this job started two and a half months ago, I finished some coding for the AE Installer and decided that I should informally take some time off from Oni to adjust to my new schedule.  I'd been feeling very lethargic ever since I started working, and at first I thought it was just because I wasn't used to full-time work, but now I think I've probably been suffering from Subsyndromal SAD.  Now that I've figured this out, I think I know how to address it.


--The De-Motivator Blues--
That being said, I felt relieved not having Oni work on my plate every night when I came home from work.  What starts as a fun hobby can easily start to feel like a burden, isn't that true?  And yet, if we were seeing results from our hard work, we'd be more motivated.  The "burden" of our hobby would start feeling fun again.  It's all about what we choose to work on together, and how it contributes to moving our beloved game forward.  Moreover, I think that it's easy to be too busy for Oni if we let ourselves be.  We have to make time for the things we care about.

Also, I think that one of the reasons for my loss of motivation was the fact that, to be perfectly blunt, recently the AE has become the Gumby And Iritscen Show, which we never wanted to happen.  That's not to say that EdT and demos_kratos haven't been active, and helpful with their GUI work (EdT also does a lot of pioneering work, exploring new types of modding as Neo makes them possible), but simply that the biggest needs that we've had lately are in the area of coding in C/C++, which only three of us have been willing and able to do.  And coding skill is only going to continue to be essential as the Daodan DLL becomes more important to our future.  I think that the lack of help in this area -- the fact that so much depends on so few of us -- has been a de-motivator for me and maybe others too.  Why should all AE work stop because three people in the community were inactive for a while?  That's a silly position to end up in; this community isn't that small, is it?


--Call to Action--
Now, school and work always have to take priority in our lives, or else we end up being unhappy because our lives are unbalanced.  So if you guys absolutely can't do any Oni work right now, that's fine.  But let's try to keep up our enthusiasm for the work, and let's try to focus on what is most important for Oni's future success when we do find time for modding.  I'm just going to have to do whatever is needed to find the time for Oni modding (less website-reading at night, more VNCing into my home PC from work on lunch hours), and I hope you guys can rouse yourselves similarly.  Things have been slow here lately because Real Life has been catching up with us all, but it's time to grab Real Life by the collar and say, "Stop pushing me around, bub."

As long as we all still believe in the value of Oni, in terms of how fun it is and how unique it is and how much unfulfilled potential it has, then, really, let's get back in gear already!  We all have some free time for Oni.  We of the AE Team need you guys as fellow fans, and we also need some of you as contributors.  We also need to communicate publicly better than we have been communicating, so that you have a clearer idea of what we need and how to help us.  Too much conversation takes place behind closed doors, so I'd like to apologize for encouraging that bad habit.  I should be making up for that in the coming weeks.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Okay, I'll step off my soapbox here, and listen to your responses.  Any other suggestions as to why things have been slow lately?  Anything else the Team should be doing better?  Questions about our needs for the AE, beyond what I've discussed?  Also, I plan to make some further statements about what we can do for Oni's future, so I can get your feedback and hopefully stoke the embers of our collective fire a bit more.  I'm also waiting for some other factors to click into place before I talk about some specific plans for Oni's long-term future -- probably that will happen within a couple weeks.

P.S.: Sorry for the long post, and apologies to geyser for plagiarizing him with my topic title.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#2 24/1/10 19:43

Gumby
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

I'd also like to apologize. I haven't been working on Oni stuff at all lately. I haven't had much motivation to do such things lately. My life is kind of crappy right now, if that's any excuse at all.
---
If you will take a look, EdT is just about the only person from the old Oni boards who still posts here regularly. Iritscen and I haven't been around long in comparison. Sometimes I feel like the fan base for this game is dieing.


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#3 24/1/10 20:46

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

I don't think it's dying yet, but there is natural turnover in terms of who specifically is a part of the community at a given point in time.  Also, even if it is declining, if we can get certain projects done, it can rejuvenate the fan base.  We know that BGI can make for some good eye candy and PR, and we know that people will go nuts over MP, even if it's rough at first.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#4 25/1/10 1:50

TOCS
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

I don't think it's dying either, people may seem a little inactive, but maybe it's because there haven't been any great releases around in some time.

For my part, I think I'm just to lazy to begin modding again. Though I check out these forums everyday.
Well I guess it was a bit painfull moddig Oni, with all the packages, renaming of files (x2) etc.
I might get into all this stuff when we get a step further into the modding stage of Oni, like multiplayer.

Last edited by TOCS (25/1/10 1:52)


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#5 25/1/10 2:35

Leus
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Yeah where's the new AE?  Someone said it'd be out in 3 weeks like 6 months ago or somethin.


If we don't change the direction we're going, we'll likely end up where we're headed.

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#6 25/1/10 3:47

Unit 2
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Heh, I don't think it's been dying, just not many things to talk about at the moment. I know I visit this forum every day, but I don't say anything unless I feel like it.

Last edited by Unit 2 (25/1/10 3:48)

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#7 25/1/10 6:30

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Leus wrote:

Yeah where's the new AE?  Someone said it'd be out in 3 weeks like 6 months ago or somethin.

There are basically only a few small things left to do, but as I was saying, it was all being done by Gumby and I, and we've been kinda lame lately.  If there were more hands onboard, things wouldn't have been stalled just because we two were inactive.  Perhaps we also could have done more to ask for help.  Anyway, if we rouse ourselves now, then we can handle these last few things ourselves.  Once we release the new AE, I think we will start making our needs known to the community so we can get more help — once we figure out exactly what those needs are.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#8 25/1/10 7:47

Samer
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

:\ I haven't been active lately bec of my exams and Now I'm back and ready to make new mods .. and I told you abt that before hand smile  my interest in Oni or modding hasn't decreased one bit ... and I hope urs doesn't either !!

I am however very surprised by the lack of activity during my absence ...

I expected the new AE to be released that's for sure

I'm also very disappointed by Shade, Mukade, myplea, leaving.

today I just formatted my whole PC bec XSI wasn't working and today or tomorrow I'm going to learn animations and start making new animations like Edt (hopefully) has been doing ...

and definitely 100 % continue all the various characters project ...

Gumby how about that mutant konoko chenille ?

Leus how about that updated version of Oni Zen Garden u were going to make ?


My life is realllllly crappy right now too, however I find comfort and and an outlet in modding Oni.

EdT said something really valuable to me : don't burn yourself out ... so guys if all you do is work on Oni sooner or later u'll get bored with it and lose motive.. so time management and balance is the key,


Cheers for EdT for still being active and inspiring others ( like myself) to do more smile

Oni will not die }:| !!! not on my watch people tongue !

Last edited by Samer (25/1/10 7:56)


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#9 25/1/10 8:59

s10k
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Well I also did nothing in last years. I have lost a lot of interest by oni... Not just in oni but in almost games. I don't know. (Iritscen probably know that I have been just a little more active in last months because he sent me an email to change my oni web page, and I begin since then visiting the forum a little more)

I am also in exams and I don't have a lot of time right now. I always did almost scripts because I never feel that I needed much more to have more fun with oni. About in 2005/06 I was very interested in multiplayer, but I couldn't help because I didn't know how to program. Right now I am not anymore interested in multiplayer, I just feel curiosity how it should be, nothing more.

I would like to help Iritscen and Gumby with c/c++ programming, but right now I just know program in Java, and I don't feel with time and patience to learn a new language. (Well at least while I don't "mastering" java at fully)

About community dieing well I feel it also. But I have in mind this is a game with almost 10 years, that already wasn't fully popular when it was been release. It's natural that people wich loved this game begin forgetting it. Also there wasn't "new blood" to fill this lefts. I mean how many guys are now interesting in play a game that is 10 years old and almost unknown?   

I also feel the difference in the language (I know that sometimes my posts aren't really well understood) and also in time (when where is night there (in us) is afternoon). I know this are not excuses but I feel it.

If I can do anything with java or bsl just tell me. I will try my best. (after exams of course)

See you.

Last edited by s10k (27/1/10 9:55)

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#10 25/1/10 10:25

Tudorge
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Pessimism is just wrong. Really wrong.
When around 2007, people worried about global warming. The more they worry, the more they ruin happiness from citizens. Country side peeps are really nonchalant, living as allways. Even my parrents make pessimistic remarks, and all they do by that is accentuate the bad things that happen. My point is, if you don't have faith, ye' must have no blood in you.
You become noobs and nublets.
Also, you should notice as I noticed, that if you do good things, good things will happen to you. Don't matter the time or the impact of that, what matters is that you get rewarded if you chose the right way.

I'm not a hippie.

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#11 25/1/10 11:42

EdT
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

First of all, I want to thank Gumby and Iritscen for their hard work in making AEInstaller.  That single program had made it easier for Oni fans to add mods to their game.  Previously, it required hex editing, command line and a little magic to get mods working.  Now all we have to do is install a package. big_smile  We may take it for granted, but, making such a program requires a lot of time patience and troubleshooting. 

I don't agree with the fan base dying, look at the download counter for Edition: PC 2,090 and Mac 1,247 as of Jan 25 and both have been downloaded in the last 24 hours.  So there are a number of Oni fans out there, just not so many active modders.

I've been on the forums since 2006 and have seen the ups and downs of the activity.  We are in a current lull, but, it will pick up again. 

There are lots to look forward to: the next update to AE, importing new levels with pathfinding, multiplayer, who knows what Neo will come up with and so on.  So at times, it may seem we are moving slowly, but we are making progress.

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#12 25/1/10 13:04

demos_kratos
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

So we need hands huh? Well, no C/C++ coders came up in my head after 20 mins of reminding. In the end I'm going to start learning C soon. But that's gonna take a while.


Jente, du er deilig, du er lekker, ihvertfall nå når jeg drikker.
Baby, du har det som trengs, hva er sannsynligheten for at vi to hopper til sengs?
Kan du si meg det? Jeg er ikke så stø i sannsynlighetsregning.

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#13 25/1/10 13:10

Tudorge
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Can you tell me how important is c/c++ coding in oni (I know it was programmed using it) and what could you modify from the game using it? I would really like to learn a modern programming language, because i like programming. But going from BASIC to C ...
Could anyone of you veterans smile direct me to a good tutorial, manual or any sort of learning helper? Thanks.

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#14 25/1/10 16:30

TOCS
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Basicly, I think we need more attention, so some of the higher modders will put an eye on these forums. Something incredible should be done, like a very interesting trailer for AE.

@ Tudorge : If you've absolutely no knowledge in programming, I suggest you starting with Visual Basic, just so you get all the basic stuff. Then you could continue with learning other languages, like the ones you said. Online tutorials can be helpfull sometimes, but I suggest you books, as they're alot more detailed. Ofcourse this depends on if you want to spend money.


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#15 25/1/10 16:38

Jon God
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Yeah, I am going to agree with "Don't burn yourself out". I have ended up doing this with Myth quite a few times. Just take some time off, and wait till you feel re-inspired.


I would make mods for Oni, but it currently isn't possible to do the kind of things that I would like to see. smile
(I seem to always want to push the envelope with game engines)

I don't know any programming, so I can't help you there, only give moral support.


Lastly, the community dying? That's a matter of opinion, sure the old forums may have seemed like 'the golden days' or something, but there weren't many people posting then either. In fact at the time, I could probably have named all the major posters, and I wasn't even that active of a member. People always think communities are dying, and they always are to a point, though, it's often overly exaggerated. Look at Marathon and Myth, people have said they would die each year, and people still play them both.


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PSN: Jon_God
XBL: Ernie The Bear

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#16 25/1/10 17:20

Tudorge
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

I have some experience with old computers, and i've started learning general stuff from BASIC.
Even a relative of mine learnt some c++ for his degree in some faculty, and says it is easy if you get used to the syntax, and i'll burn my tongue if it isn't.
And Visual basic scares me!
I've written some fun stuff in QBASIC and different basic interpreters. But i love QBASIC, and you should too. Maybe we could make a Konoko sprite sometime smile.
I started last year, making a metronome, some drawings (hard to make, i even forgot), a timer, of course TIME$, a question game wich had many entries in its strings, a small animated sprite, animated text, a bad screen saver but it had a fun effect when text flows as the cpu computes FOR NEXT loops with text in stairs and it looked like stars, and a few melodies played on system speakers. I've heard about basic from a book by Peter Norton (PC Secrets)
Luckily i had a siemens mobile notebook to write on, it had a Pentium 2 processor and speakers (im talking of the beeping ol' thing you use when you run ye' old DOS compat. programs).

EDIT: Oh, again, can someone tell me a good tutorial/book for C++? I probably won't find books, but it would be greatly appreciated if you would give me a name.

Last edited by Tudorge (25/1/10 17:22)

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#17 25/1/10 18:17

Lithium
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

this forum is pretty active for 1 game on 3 consoles. Here is a more abandoned forum, so i hope you don't think this forum is dead right now
http://doubledragon.kontek.net/forums/
the only people that post are the admin, 2 mods, and maybe 2 users, also note that dd shaped beat em ups

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#18 25/1/10 18:38

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Tudorge wrote:

EDIT: Oh, again, can someone tell me a good tutorial/book for C++? I probably won't find books, but it would be greatly appreciated if you would give me a name.

And again, I'll link to my post on this subject ^_^:
http://oni.bungie.org/community/forum/v … 554#p19554


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#19 26/1/10 3:00

Tudorge
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

Too bad they don't teach (us that don't get taught at least, but i know many are the same) programming computers in school. I may be in a music school, but it's a waste of an hour to prupose an hour where all you learn is how to use office allready written programs, how to use Windows wich is really bad without introduction and absolutely no explanation on how they work.

Last edited by Tudorge (26/1/10 6:18)

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#20 26/1/10 6:05

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

If you can't read a three paragraph post all the way through, I don't know what chances you have of studying a language that takes thousands of pages to document....


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#21 26/1/10 16:23

TheCreature
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

I'd like to get into modding and code and stuff, but I'm not sure how to get started.  Everytime I start, I want to jump right to the advanced stuff. roll  Is there anything I can do towards the big project (multiplayer) that doesn't require modding skills?  (Until I learn, that is)


The artist must bow to the monster of his own imagination.  Promoting the IRC and stuff for the RP: Rules Dice Map and RP

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#22 26/1/10 17:03

Gumby
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

TheCreature wrote:

I'd like to get into modding and code and stuff, but I'm not sure how to get started.  Everytime I start, I want to jump right to the advanced stuff. roll  Is there anything I can do towards the big project (multiplayer) that doesn't require modding skills?  (Until I learn, that is)

Pay me so that I don't have to look for a job. wink


Iritscen: roll
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours

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#23 26/1/10 18:05

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

TheCreature wrote:

I'd like to get into modding and code and stuff, but I'm not sure how to get started.  Everytime I start, I want to jump right to the advanced stuff.

My first programming experience was typing in BASIC programs printed in scientific magazines, but they don't do that anymore.  Then I just played around with scripting languages by making things that were useful to me on my personal computer.  Then, in HS, I was taking classes in C, so I was following the teacher's exercises.  Although I also had a side project that pushed my abilities as a programmer, most of what I wrote in high school was simple stuff that could have come from a textbook.  If you buy one, and just go chapter by chapter, forcing yourself to do all the basic stuff, you'll probably be surprised how quickly you can move forward to the more advanced stuff.

Is there anything I can do towards the big project (multiplayer) that doesn't require modding skills?  (Until I learn, that is)

Don't pay Gumby, you'll just encourage his laziness ^_^

Well, unfortunately all the early work on MP will require coding skills.  Later, it will be possible to make new arenas for MP play (and SP play!), which will require modeling skills.  I'm already excited to see what people come up with, and we don't even have MP working yet!  But at that point, a firm grasp of realistic architectural modeling will be a big plus, since that's what Oni's levels are known for.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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#24 30/1/10 5:30

love_Oni
Member

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

It's true that I have been inactive for nearly a year. I am in grade 12th now, it is my last school year in the High School. I feel pressurized into the result of my studying. I always want to have the best result, and I used to think that "If don't stop playing and modding Oni to concentrate on my studies, I won't pass the final exams", so I decided to stop going to the Internet and the forum.

But then I realized that I needn't to take too much time on my studies, since the results I have achieved has fulfilled my ambition enough. But how did I feel after that? I can't seem to get involved in the forum anymore. I don't know how to start again. I did feel that my presence for now would be an unusual thing. I'm still doing some small mods to play Oni, but I always feared that my mods will not be good enough to talk about. I don't know anything to do, but keeping my silence, going to the forum and watching people discussing, alone.

I don't want to sadden anyone, but I don't want to see anyone feeling sad. I've just realized for now that if I joined a forum, I don't need to be special. It's a good thing that you have one voice, one speech on the forum. smile  Your presence will encourage the people on the forum much. You don't have to do anything big, but it is you who will make people feel that they are not alone. I've seen it for now, I decided to join back to the forum.

There are many exams waiting for me in the future, that means maybe I will not go to the forum regularly. But who cares? If there is anything interested for me, I will be pleasant to discuss and help.  smile


The Boy Who Knew Too Much tongue

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#25 30/1/10 7:14

Iritscen
Moderator

Re: To the community: Oni's "dark future"?

It's certainly fine if people want to look on; as I said before, we need more players than we do modders.  But in case anyone wants to help and doesn't know how... I think that, once we get this next release out, we may start advertising for help on the forum.  We haven't tried that approach before, so it may help organize the work for BGI and/or Flatline and prevent people from feeling lost as to how they can contribute.


byproducts are fine, but where's the beef?

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