couldn't control

Leus · 11/11/09 15:11

Yes, I understand that you view the world as disconnected. This is what "they" want. It's not a conspiracy theory, they just don't want to be associated with the shit they produce, and it makes perfect sense. They wouldn't be able to do the things they do otherwise.

Last edited by Leus (11/11/09 15:11)

adorage · 11/11/09 17:11

T_W_D, believe it or not, I'm with you on that one. I don't know if violence would be the right response in northero's situation, but that's a strategic question, not a moral one. In principle, you are completely right in pointing out that some people won't change, no matter how often you ask them nicely or how much you love them. It's a dangerous - and common - illusion that often keeps people in unbearable situations. And it leads to victim blaming in the long run. It comes pretty close to what Nietzsche called the "slave morale": the illusion that your ability to suffer oppression without responding in kind makes you morally superior to your oppressor. A perfect rationalisation, gives the slave a pretense of dignity and keeps the slave owner prosperous. But I digress...

Leus wrote:

How about this: When was the last time violence SOLVED anything?

Violence is effective. Dreadfully effective. It "solves" things all the time, but the most ruthless ones will always triumph as long as the rest of us leave this weapon at their exclusive disposal.
And while I would prefer a peaceful world, I am glad the Gulabi Gang exists (look it up, they kick ass... literally) and I'm glad girls in Kairo now flock to the Karate dojos due to the escalating sexual harrassment in their town. I also think the main reason the US hasn't invaded Iran or Pakistan yet is that the Iraqis and the Afghans are putting up a fight - I suspect similar things about Vietnam but I don't feel qualified to really judge that. Or how about the Warsaw ghetto uprising? How about the "Limes germanicus"? There are many examples throughout history when peaceful resistance would have been absolutely pointless. I do believe peaceful solutions to be the more desirable way to resolve any conflict - but you can't negotiate with someone who won't listen and you can't form treaties with someone who lies.

Leus wrote:

Sure, it brought about revolution and the fall of oppressive regimes, but what's in their place now? More oppressive regimes.

I guess you could argue about whether Germany is really a democracy... but if it isn't, no country today is. A case that could be made, of course.

It always amazes me how quickly we get from the specific to the fundamental in this forum

Leus · 11/11/09 18:11

I also think the main reason the US hasn't invaded Iran or Pakistan yet is that the Iraqis and the Afghans are putting up a fight

That just doesn't make sense in the politicized world we live in. If the US were going around like a medieval colonial nation conquering people in this day and age, we'd get our asses kicked no matter how powerful we are. We depend on the support of other nations, so unless all the powerful nations agreed to march our armies forward and raze the weak countries to the ground for their resources (and got our military fighters to march willingly into such battles), there's no way we could justify fighting someone who wasn't fighting us back.

The "slave morale" thing is definitely true and again I'm not suggesting that we remain complacent with oppression. I'm just saying violence isn't the way to solve it. Also I'm not talkin' about democracy; the most oppressive nations in the world claim democracy. Sure, there are certain nations with ruthless regimes that oppress, torture and kill their citizens, but nations like the US support the aforementioned regimes AND oppress pretty much the whole rest of the world. And, the US is borne out of violence. We fought the regime that attempted to control us and became more vicious and dominant, and here we are. Just because violence moves things forward or changes things doesn't mean it solves problems.

IMO.

Just some further babbling... It's also not about "negotiating" with someone who is harassing you. It's about not giving them the choice to oppress you. It IS up to the oppressed, but the oppressors do all they can to hide that fact from the masses.

Leus · 11/11/09 18:11

In response to the implied Nazi example: I'm pretty sure that's a mass-scale example of some crazy guy attacking you on the street, and a need for self defense. Attacking and killing while being upfront about not having justification for it can only be met in the short term with self defense. Most of the oppressive systems of the world don't operate like the Nazi movement.

Iritscen · 11/11/09 18:11

You're doing it again... I'm watching you, Mr. Can't-Put-All-His-Thoughts-In-One-Post ^_^ I guarantee you, no one read your first post in the two minutes after it was made. If you'd edited your additional thoughts into it, no one would be the wiser.

I'd make an on-topic remark, but I already stated my viewpoint that fighting is wrong, end of story. It's good to be able to defend yourself, but when you think about it, most fighting is not so well-justified as "This guy attacked me out of the blue and I had to do something". It seems to me that "defensive" fights are usually initiated in response to a perceived threat or a prideful refusal to back down or avoid a situation that could lead to a fight. This is true on the individual and international level.

Leus · 11/11/09 18:11

Agreed on all counts, including my double post lol. I realized after I did it. Any chance of somehow gettin' a delete button?

Iritscen · 11/11/09 19:11

Not unless you become a moderator I don't think I've seen a forum where regular members can delete their own posts.

Leus · 11/11/09 21:11

Really? I could on the roosterteeth forums, but I guess that was only as a sponsor. I don't see what the diff is, though; you can completely erase everything you said, so you might as well be able to delete the post.

northero · 11/11/09 21:11

I agee with adorage and T_W_D on some people out dere won't change juz because of ur care and concern so I'm gonna ask u this question. If they are incorrigible, why bother to quarrel with them or fight ? Think about it

Gumby · 11/11/09 23:11

Iritscen wrote:

Not unless you become a moderator I don't think I've seen a forum where regular members can delete their own posts.

I've seen a few. You just haven't seen enough forums.

adorage · 11/12/09 17:11

Leus wrote:

I also think the main reason the US hasn't invaded Iran or Pakistan yet is that the Iraqis and the Afghans are putting up a fight
That just doesn't make sense in the politicized world we live in. If the US were going around like a medieval colonial nation conquering people in this day and age, we'd get our asses kicked no matter how powerful we are. We depend on the support of other nations, so unless all the powerful nations agreed to march our armies forward and raze the weak countries to the ground for their resources (and got our military fighters to march willingly into such battles), there's no way we could justify fighting someone who wasn't fighting us back.

How is that different from what I said? There's no colonising in the traditional sense to be done anymore because almost all the land mass of the planet has been converted into nationstates by now, but apart from that that is what's happening. You don't need to have an army in a country today in order to kill the people there. You can take away their water, not give them medication for the illnesses pollution brings them, dump toxic waste into the oceans they get their food from, etc. - this will kill them just as surely. And it's supported by the powerful nations and seen as justified because it's presented as inevitable.

Leus wrote:

The "slave morale" thing is definitely true and again I'm not suggesting that we remain complacent with oppression. I'm just saying violence isn't the way to solve it. Also I'm not talkin' about democracy; the most oppressive nations in the world claim democracy. Sure, there are certain nations with ruthless regimes that oppress, torture and kill their citizens, but nations like the US support the aforementioned regimes AND oppress pretty much the whole rest of the world. And, the US is borne out of violence. We fought the regime that attempted to control us and became more vicious and dominant, and here we are. Just because violence moves things forward or changes things doesn't mean it solves problems.

I agree, but that doesn't refute what I said. The most ruthless ones are in power because the rest of us leave the weapon of violence to them.

Leus wrote:

Just some further babbling... It's also not about "negotiating" with someone who is harassing you. It's about not giving them the choice to oppress you. It IS up to the oppressed, but the oppressors do all they can to hide that fact from the masses.

So what is it about then? If you don't negotiate and you categorically rule out violence, which other options do you have?

northero wrote:

I agee with adorage and T_W_D on some people out dere won't change juz because of ur care and concern so I'm gonna ask u this question. If they are incorrigible, why bother to quarrel with them or fight ?

I'm not advocating picking fights. This is about "if all else fails". Of course I'd prefer to avoid such situations.

Leus · 11/13/09 05:11

Adorage: I misread that first part originally. Whoops.

I think you've got that second part backwards. I think we leave the weapon of violence to them because they are in power. At this point there's no way the oppressed are gonna angry mob their way into power, and they know it, but they don't know what else to do.

So, nonviolent resistance is what I suggest. This includes obviously nonviolent forms of protest, education of the people, legal counteraction, and... Stuff... Like that. I'm about to pass out, I'll come by and read this tomorrow.

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