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#26 09/02/09 06:09

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

First, HERE is video of aforementioned bug. I toyed with it a bit, looks like it works on other knockdowning moves as well. Enemies can do it too. Simply crouch (maybe move away a bit also ) and pray for it to happen. But it is quite random.

Pierre wrote:

If you guys have ideas about a good blocking system otherwise, I'm interested.

Have you ever played Gothic 3? If yes, you will understand: "You asked for it !"
Also, Iritscen run because it is here again...run...RUUUUUN ^_^

                                                           Blocking system

- This system consists of three types of blocks. Passive block, Perfect block ( *Mind trick on Gumby* ) and Parry/reversal.
- This system utilizes standard "Street fighter"ish blocking zones - upper region ( blocked while not crouching ) and lower region ( blocked while crouching ).

Passive block
Simplest of of them all. Simply hold "go back" key or block key ( holding both together does not matter, effect should be the same ). For passive blocking lower region, additionaly press and hold "crouch" key.

Passive blocking lets character defend all incoming attacks in about 160° arc in front of character in specified region ( upper/lower ). Passive blocking works as long as character wishes to defend. However, there are limitations, which situate this type of blocking to be used as a "last choice" and not as your favourite one.

When passive blocking any attack, character gets staggered ( and forced back ) by every attack. Power of stagger ( how much/how long ) is defined in each attack move separately, so punches stagger less than kicks. Length of stagger for attacks must be determined upon some beta testing ( I am voluenteering for it if you need ). Unblockable attacks are unblockable by passive blocking ^_^.

Yes, staggering pushes defender away from attacker. But staggering also renders defender unable to attack ( so no chance to quick counterattack ), move, escape or rotate so it grants attacker chance to continue combo or to throw defender or to force defender to stagger into some pit.

But still this type of blocking is needed, mainly for bigger brawls to serve as a life-saver to hopefully staggger out of reach ( but good attacker won't let you ^_^ ).

VIDEO DEMONSTRATION of how passive block should look.



Perfect block
Press only "block" key ( yes, holding back will negate it and degrade you into passive blocking ) or "crouch + block" key within some small time period before attack impacts to perform perfect block.

Perfect block makes character dodge strike completely, which means unblockables can be perfect blocked ( you dodge ). But by "dodging" is not meant character has to move back. Defender stays almost on spot, but performs corresponding dodge animation.

As you can see, by perfect blocking defender is not pushed back plus he can have time to effectively counterattack ( depends on attacker's attack cooldown, for example if defender dodges rising fury fist attack, he has almost half second to do something ).

Perfect blocking series of punches maybe won't grant defender chance to immediately counterattack ( pauses between punches are quite short ), but attacker won't push defender back and defender can counterattack or throw attacker as he is finishing his combo ( requires defender to know moves of characters and can anticipate end of combo ).

VIDEO DEMONSTRATION of how perfect block should look.



Parry/reversal
Press "block + punch" to perform punch parry attempt, press "block + kick" to perform kick parry attempt. Do it with "crouch" key to perform lower region variants. Again, holding "back" key in a process degrades defender into passive blocking.

By doing parry attempt, defender does similar thing to perfect block ( has to perform it within some small period before attack impacts ), but this time it works only on selected attacks in selected region ( punches/kicks || upper/lower region ), other attacks than those which are matching used parry will hit as if defender was not blocking. So stakes are high but rewards are as well.

Sucessful parry will put attacker into "parried" state ( I don't know about animation, maybe stagger for beta testing and later make some anims based on which limb was parried ? ).

This state lasts only for a half of second or less, so defender must know what he is doing, otherwise he will waste it. During that time period, parried attacker can only defend. Cannot move, cannot turn, cannot attack, cannot jump. Can only defend ( all three types of blocking are allowed for him ).

When defender sucesfully parries attacker, defender can swiftly input one of two throw commands ( there is where my request about separating throws from positionally used "punch/kick forward" command comes into play ) to sorta "reversal" attacker. Or defender can launch attack of his own.

Of course then there should be some option to be able to escape from throws, otherwise choice is clear - throw whenever it is possible. I suggest that throws should be blocked by pressing "back + punch" for all punch throws except rear ones ( those should be unblockable ) and "back + kick" for all kick throws except rear ones ( those should be unblockable as well ).

One sorta "easy" way to make throw escaping is to give some sort of time period into throws during which thrown character can input command. If command is correct, play stagger for both character ( so they stagger one away from another ). It is up to the beta testing again to decide how long should thes time interval be for each throw and where to put "now both of you play stagger" mark in case of broken throw. Later one can replace stagger with regular broken throw animations for thrower and thrown guys.

NO VIDEO DEMONSTRATION as Oni won't let me simulate such a thing. -_-


THE END

                                                                                                                               Loser

P.S.: I think I have come one step closer to becoming second big G.....

Last edited by Loser (09/02/09 07:09)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#27 09/02/09 07:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Whaaaaat?  Why haven't you played the Edition?  It's like Oni Plus.

I haven't "played" Oni for years. I only run it when I have a question in KP, like "hmmm how did it work in Oni?", then I try a random level for about 2 minutes to see the original behavior, and that's it. So there was no real incentive for me to try an extended version.

This, and it looked too painful to install IIRC  tongue

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#28 09/02/09 07:09

Pierre
Member
Registered: 01/24/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Thanks for the detailed notes, Loser. No I didn't play Gothic 3. I have to pack my PC now so I can't write much, but I'll think about the blocking system while relocating!

EDIT: oh and the "bug" in Konoko Payne is not a bug, I just randomly play the stagger anim, regardless of the player's state (crouch or not crouch). It didn't look so wrong to me... but we can discuss that later.

brb

Last edited by Pierre (09/02/09 07:09)

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#29 09/02/09 09:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

I knew there was a mammoth Loser post incoming, it was just a matter of time.  I see now you were busy preparing those demo videos (interesting dodging demo!). ^_^

I didn't want to complicate things in my suggestions or else I would have mentioned something similar to what Loser just described, which are tech hits and advanced guards.  I'm more familiar with these techniques from Marvel vs. Capcom, a newer game than SFII.

A tech hit is an escape from a throw, done in MvC by pressing forward+heavy punch+heavy kick.  The opponent escapes their thrower's grasp mid-throw and lands on their feet.  Sometimes you tech roll instead, pulling off an escaping roll out of danger.  This prevents spamming throws on a blocking opponent.

The blocker also has the option of pressing two or three punch buttons while blocking to push the opponent away, called an advanced guard.  The enemy is often sent all the way across the screen (it's a non-damaging attack).  This is similar to Loser's parry suggestion, in that it doesn't leave your enemy wide open for an attack, it just gets him out of your face (in a more realistic game, the pushback would of course be smaller).

Anyway, just mentioning those for comparison so you can think about the effects of those techniques and whether they would be useful in KP.  It's hard to adapt the actual controls for those moves to a game with only one punch and kick button, which is why Loser's suggestions require a block button.  I wasn't crazy about it at first, but I'm seeing the reason for it now.  Overall I'd say that the Gothic 3 system would be well-liked by gamers, but I think tech hits and tech rolls would look pretty cool in KP too.

------------
@Loser: I just have to say about the passive block that I don't like the idea of every attack causing stagger, if that's what you're saying.  Being pushed back is normal for blocking in games, but only big attacks should stagger.  That leaves a newbie player the option of just using passive block at first without getting staggered all over the place.  2D Fighting games are easy to learn and hard to master, so they remain noob friendly (unless they're in the arcade and an experienced player is mercilessly killing them).

"Sucessful parry will put attacker into "parried" state ( I don't know about animation, maybe stagger for beta testing and later make some anims based on which limb was parried ? )"
Probably new animations would eventually be needed if Pierre went with this idea, like brushing the enemy's arm aside as they punch.  It's hard to picture that being done with a kicking leg, so maybe parrying a kick would actually lead to a dodge animation similar to your demo up there for perfect blocking.

------------
"This, and it looked too painful to install IIRC"
It's a piece of cake to install, no excuses now.  cool


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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#30 09/02/09 13:09

Loser
Member
From: somewhere in da Czech Republic
Registered: 01/14/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

Forget about Gothic 3, that game is terrible clickofest even with Community patches ( I hope Risen shall rise to former glory of Gothic series ). It was reference to the phrase "You asked for it!". Orcs say that in a brute voice as they unsheath weapon and go to skin you alive if you piss them. But since I am near the end of the game, I can kill them in a matter of minute, so it looks a bit funny then - "You asked for it! ... ... Argh, yeargh, urgh, ahrgh, AWRAGWARH" And orc is dead  ^_^

Next, thanks Pierre for letting me know what is going on with stagger. Nice feature.

Back to defending stuff. Thank you for comments Iritscen. Well, with staggering - I want passive block to be really passive, so no "attacker starts, defender passive blocks first two hits then throws attacker before atacker does third move of combo" as we can se in Oni. That would promote turtling, and while I don't like and don't encourage okizeme tactics, still too much turtling is annoying.

If you block passively, you are at mercy of opponent. If opponent is less skillful and there is no obstacle, you will eventually get out of his reach within a few blocks or he ends his combo and you can do something. But if he is skilled, you will have hard time escaping without getting hit at least once. That will encourage to mix passive block with perfect blocking/parrying, and that is what I want to see.

"You passive block some guy two or three times, then you perfect block him as he wants to do some hard strike and throw him." That is what I go for.

And about leg parry - VIDEO. Apologies for poor performance, but I have to control both characters ^_^

Point of my suggested system is that you have three major components of brawling mixed in one game - you have passive defense, you have pin-point dodging of attacks and you have parries. Choice is up to one's reflexes/abilities.

                                                                                                          Loser

Last edited by Loser (09/02/09 13:09)


"I am just a mere reflection of what I would be."

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#31 09/02/09 13:09

Iritscen
Moderator
From: NC, USA
Registered: 10/22/07

Re: Konoko Payne, august 2009 release

"If you block passively, you are at mercy of opponent. If opponent is less skillful and there is no obstacle, you will eventually get out of his reach within a few blocks or he ends his combo and you can do something. But if he is skilled, you will have hard time escaping without getting hit at least once. That will encourage to mix passive block with perfect blocking/parrying, and that is what I want to see."
Okay, it's probably something that I'd be fine with if I saw it in action.

I do feel compelled to point just one thing out, though, which is that what I'm seeing in that video is physically kind of impossible.  It appears that his leg is going through her head when she parries. ^_^  I guess if the character ducks more, it might work, or if she pushes his leg up over her head as he kicks (although that would probably knock him over if we were going to be realistic, which would make it a better perfect block animation than a passive one).


Check out the Anniversary Edition Seven at ae.oni2.net!

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