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I had to look up Xorg, apparently that's what X11 is . I don't really know anything about its history, though.
I am fond of open source as a provider of development tools, and I like OOo and what I've seen of GIMP, but I can't help but think about how FOSS puts developers out of work at the same time.
Last edited by Iritscen (07/23/17 16:07)
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I had to look up Xorg, apparently that's what X11 is . I don't really know anything about its history, though.
Yes, it is the currently most used X11 implementation.
Now it is way more stable and self-configuring than it was a couple of years ago.
I am fond of open source as a provider of development tools, and I like OOo and what I've seen of GIMP, but I can't help but think about how FOSS puts developers out of work at the same time.
"out of work"?
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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"out of work"?
In that people are using FOSS in increasing numbers. This decreases demand for commercial products. It's more noticeable in some ways on the small scale where freeware competes with shareware. Adobe programmers won't be out of a job just because they sell less of their product, but it makes it harder to be an indie developer when there are free programs that perform so many functions.
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well, that's probably an old argument too…
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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Hey, here's a new approach on the subject.
I think it is possible to generalize the fundamental difference between Mac users and PC users.
PC users are objective. Mac users are subjective.
Obviously it is not true for everyone, however it works nicely to explain some of the main differences.
About the price for example. A PC user comparing a PC and a Mac will compare specifications one to one: processor speed, RAM, graphics card, disk space…
In this case, if you oppose the Apple iMac (let's say the weakest one, worth around one thousand dollars) to the Dell XPS 630 (which is for the same price a gamer machine), the iMac is a clear loser. Core 2 Duo vs Core Quad, 2 Go of RAM vs 3 Go, 320 Go of disk space vs 500… objectively, the iMac is really over-priced. That's what a PC user will usually say — an he will be totally right.
However, the Mac User will get subjective; he will look at things that can't be measured and rated. He will say that the PC is a gigantic heavy monster, while the iMac is a mere screen that you can even weld to a wall; that the PC requires an external screen and thus wires (with a little intelligence and patience you can deal nicely with wires, indeed; but not having to deal with them at all is convenient; moreover, since Apple knows its computers, the keyboard's wire has just the perfect size, and same goes for the mouse which is directly connected on one of the keyboard's USB ports). He will talk about how cleverly is organized the shipment box, how fast it is to take the few components out of their storage and how fast your computer will be up and running (he won't forget to precise that you will be connected to Internet before even seeing your desktop for the first time).
You'll say, "hey, we weren't comparing OSes!". You're right. This guy sometimes gets a bit too excited, forgive him .
Anyway! This is a good example of the objective vs subjective. While strictly looking at specifications, the PC wins without any doubt; but if you take into account things that can't be measured, things of which importance varies from person to person like design or usability, then the Mac… can win. Its victory is… subjective .
And this subjective thing is one of the reasons “Mac VS PC” conversations never go anywhere.
Because all of the worthiness of a Mac is subjective. It's its ergonomy, ease of use, elegance, design, which awarded him with users.
But don't worry, there are objective things about Mac computers. The most evocative one of all these, is the fact that nearly every person who one day bought a Mac, never went back for a PC-only life. I think that is speaking for itself.
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But don't worry, there are objective things about Mac computers. The most evocative one of all these, is the fact that nearly every person who one day bought a Mac, never went back for a PC-only life. I think that is speaking for itself.
Right…
but i think that the word "subjective" might not be the right one: those things are true, they are simply not simple to compare.
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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Hey, here's a new approach on the subject.
I think it is possible to generalize the fundamental difference between Mac users and PC users.
PC users are objective. Mac users are subjective.
Obviously it is not true for everyone, however it works nicely to explain some of the main differences.
Hmm. Generalizations aren't good, but I'll let it slide for now...
About the price for example. A PC user comparing a PC and a Mac will compare specifications one to one: processor speed, RAM, graphics card, disk space…
In this case, if you oppose the Apple iMac (let's say the weakest one, worth around one thousand dollars) to the Dell XPS 630 (which is for the same price a gamer machine), the iMac is a clear loser. Core 2 Duo vs Core Quad, 2 Go of RAM vs 3 Go, 320 Go of disk space vs 500… objectively, the iMac is really over-priced. That's what a PC user will usually say — an he will be totally right.
Yes, Macs are overpriced.
However, the Mac User will get subjective; he will look at things that can't be measured and rated. He will say that the PC is a gigantic heavy monster, while the iMac is a mere screen that you can even weld to a wall; that the PC requires an external screen and thus wires (with a little intelligence and patience you can deal nicely with wires, indeed; but not having to deal with them at all is convenient; moreover, since Apple knows its computers, the keyboard's wire has just the perfect size, and same goes for the mouse which is directly connected on one of the keyboard's USB ports). He will talk about how cleverly is organized the shipment box, how fast it is to take the few components out of their storage and how fast your computer will be up and running (he won't forget to precise that you will be connected to Internet before even seeing your desktop for the first time).
Why would you want to connect to the internet without being able to use your internet browser? And you _can_ get monitors\keyboards with USB ports for the PC.
For the price difference, you can even get someone else to hook it up for you. Not that hooking up color coded wires is hard.
Lets compare the things you need to hook up...
PC -
Mouse to CPU
Keyboard to CPU
Ethernet to CPU
Power Cord to CPU
Monitor to CPU
Power Cord to Monitor
Mac -
Mouse to Keyboard
Keyboard to CPU
Ethernet to CPU
Power cord to Monito
The only difference between hooking up a PC and a Mac is the monitor cords. Oh noes! Two wires! It's sooo hard.
You'll say, "hey, we weren't comparing OSes!". You're right. This guy sometimes gets a bit too excited, forgive him .
Anyway! This is a good example of the objective vs subjective. While strictly looking at specifications, the PC wins without any doubt; but if you take into account things that can't be measured, things of which importance varies from person to person like design or usability, then the Mac… can win. Its victory is… subjective .
Aha. So you use smoke and mirrors to say that Macs win, but how it wins can't be measured.
And this subjective thing is one of the reasons “Mac VS PC” conversations never go anywhere.
Because all of the worthiness of a Mac is subjective. It's its ergonomy, ease of use, elegance, design, which awarded him with users.
What if I subjectively say that I like the ergonom, ease of use, elegance, and design of my PC?
But don't worry, there are objective things about Mac computers. The most evocative one of all these, is the fact that nearly every person who one day bought a Mac, never went back for a PC-only life. I think that is speaking for itself.
Big objection there. There are people who switch back. There are people who are satisfied with both. Give me some sort of reasonably unbiased survey to prove otherwise.
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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Yes, Macs are overpriced.
No, if you look at what you get.:rolleyes:
Why would you want to connect to the internet without being able to use your internet browser?
You're missing the point. What he was writing is that often you don't need to configure anything at all, it "just works". Of course then you use your browser/mail client/chat client!
The only difference between hooking up a PC and a Mac is the monitor cords. Oh noes! Two wires! It's sooo hard.
Then it take 1/5 of the space, it is less noisy, it heats less and need less energy…
What if I subjectively say that I like the ergonom, ease of use, elegance, and design of my PC?
What pc do you have?
Big objection there. There are people who switch back. There are people who are satisfied with both. Give me some sort of reasonably unbiased survey to prove otherwise.
Most doesn't switch back. Just ask around…:rolleyes:
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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Yes, Macs are overpriced.
No, if you look at what you get.:rolleyes:
Why would you want to connect to the internet without being able to use your internet browser?
You're missing the point. What he was writing is that often you don't need to configure anything at all, it "just works". Of course then you use your browser/mail client/chat client!
I don't have to configure anything to connect to the internet. O_o.
The only difference between hooking up a PC and a Mac is the monitor cords. Oh noes! Two wires! It's sooo hard.
Then it take 1/5 of the space, it is less noisy, it heats less and need less energy…
You are describing a laptop. Seriously, more generalization. I'm sure there are PCs that match Macs in those areas.
What if I subjectively say that I like the ergonom, ease of use, elegance, and design of my PC?
What pc do you have?
A runofthemill eMachine. (Rebranded hp). I have a normal desk, with room for a computer. I run Windows 7, which looks and runs pretty enough for me.
Big objection there. There are people who switch back. There are people who are satisfied with both. Give me some sort of reasonably unbiased survey to prove otherwise.
Most doesn't switch back. Just ask around…:rolleyes:
Ask who, Mac users? If you ask a Mac user, of course they haven't switched. The problem is trying to find a subsection of a subsection of desktop users, who don't advertise themselves.
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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I don't have to configure anything to connect to the internet. O_o.
Then you are lucky.
These days it is easier (the "connect to the internet" thing came out more than 10 years ago!), but on macs it's even easier.
Did you now that sending a file to another mac is a 1 click and one drag thing if you have an ethernet cable, add 2 clicks if you don't?
You are describing a laptop. Seriously, more generalization.
In facts imacs and mac minis all use laptop hardware.
I'm sure there are PCs that match Macs in those areas.
And how much they cost?:P
A runofthemill eMachine. (Rebranded hp). I have a normal desk, with room for a computer.
So it is a "classic" "box" that stays under a desktop with everything external. yes, an ideal configuration…:rolleyes:
I run Windows 7, which looks and runs pretty enough for me
If you're fine, fine.:rolleyes:
Ask who, Mac users? If you ask a Mac user, of course they haven't switched. The problem is trying to find a subsection of a subsection of desktop users, who don't advertise themselves.
And why they don't advertise themselves?:rolleyes:
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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I don't have to configure anything to connect to the internet. O_o.
Then you are lucky.
These days it is easier (the "connect to the internet" thing came out more than 10 years ago!), but on macs it's even easier.
I'm lucky how? Seriously. The number of steps it takes to connect to the internet has nothing to do with the OS, only the ISP.
Did you now that sending a file to another mac is a 1 click and one drag thing if you have an ethernet cable, add 2 clicks if you don't?
You mean by using an IM program? Please explain further.
I think you are thinking of the Mac version of http://skydrive.live.com/. Which is free, unlock .Mac.
You are describing a laptop. Seriously, more generalization.
In facts imacs and mac minis all use laptop hardware.
Indeed. So should we be comparing laptops and Macs?
I'm sure there are PCs that match Macs in those areas.
And how much they cost?:P
Probably the same as a Mac.
A runofthemill eMachine. (Rebranded hp). I have a normal desk, with room for a computer.
So it is a "classic" "box" that stays under a desktop with everything external. yes, an ideal configuration…:rolleyes:
Yes, I don't need to drool over my hardware. What is wrong with it? I can see my mouse, keyboard, and monitor. What else do I need to see?
I run Windows 7, which looks and runs pretty enough for me
If you're fine, fine.:rolleyes:
Indeed. It is a personal preference, no? Are you going to resort to insulting me for liking Windows?
Ask who, Mac users? If you ask a Mac user, of course they haven't switched. The problem is trying to find a subsection of a subsection of desktop users, who don't advertise themselves.
And why they don't advertise themselves?:rolleyes:
Because there aren't forums for PC users who switched from a Mac back to a PC again.
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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ZZZ...ZZZ...ZZZ...zzz...zzz...zzz...
Gumby note: stop spamming.
Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!
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It's not exactly that we would doubt your taste, Gumby, as much as we doubt your experience with different tastes. Again, I've worked extensively in Windows environments over the years, even though admittedly the one PC I owned at home was pre-Windows. How many hours have you spent on a Mac? The problem is that until you have that experience you don't understand the subjective elements of using a Mac. Sorry if that sounds ad-hominem, it's just how these things work.
Since we all use much the same hardware these days, it really comes down to the OS and the gestalt (the whole being greater than the sum of the parts) of Apple-designed products. Since you own an iPod you must have experienced at least a little of the Apple gestalt by now. The iTouches and iPhones are, frankly, marvels of technology that have also given a lot of people their first taste of the Apple. But, anyway, when you parse the argument down to the minute details, it's hard to say how the Mac is better because things are always changing at that level. All I can say is that it's the general feeling of how the computer works with me, never against me (certain software excepted, but I'm talking about the OS and Apple's software), that makes me a loyal Mac user.
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*shrug* I might just be too deeply entrenched in PCland. I'm ok with that. It works for me. The iPod is nice, though nothing especially special. The scrollwheel annoys me at times, I can't seem to get accurate with it. The menu design isn't bad though. The iTouch is indeed a convenient device. My mother has one. ^_^ I never said that Macs were bad. It is like a car. Some people like American cars, some people like foreign cars. As long as you do the research and get the one that you like the most, and as long as it is reliable, you can't go wrong.
I suppose the main issue is that some Mac fanatics seem to think us PC users don't know we aren't satisfied with our PCs. My PC is reliable, runs reasonably fast, runs the games I play with no issues, and I have no need to combine my monitor and CPU. No need to use at me like I'm some sort of uneducated peon.
I do have a hackintosh disk that I might load sometime for the hell of it. The last time I got everything to boot correctly I ran into issues with it not liking my NVIDIA card, leading to crappy performance. Plus the additional bonus of having no internet on it due to an incompatible wireless card.This has not influenced my opinion of Macs at all, I know Hackintosh is buggy at times. Linux, I have resolved to try it someday, when I have more room on my hard drive.
Also, I sometimes doubt your (talking to jackoverfull here) experience in using recent versions of Windows regularly. You use some pretty obsolete arguments at times (see above at connecting to the internetz).
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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You mean by using an IM program? Please explain further.
Yes, through an im client, but without needing an internet connection.
If you have an ethernet cable (no matter if it is crossed or not: if it isn't any mac produced in the last 7 years will emulate the crossing): physically connect the two macs, open iChat, you'll see each other and be able to send the file.
If you haven't but you have macs with airport (wireless) cards (any mac produced after 2004 has one): go to the airport menu, create a new network (it's all automatic), connect to it from the other mac, then proceed as above.
Indeed. So should we be comparing laptops and Macs?
No, you should compare mac pros with professional pcs and imacs and mac minis with equivalent pcs…
that, as you wrote, cost…
Probably the same as a Mac.
Because there aren't forums for PC users who switched from a Mac back to a PC again.
You know anyone who returned to windows after having used Mac OS X (not mac OS 7: a lot of people did then, when apple seemed close to dying).
Also, I sometimes doubt your (talking to jackoverfull here) experience in using recent versions of Windows regularly. You use some pretty obsolete arguments at times (see above at connecting to the internetz).
Heck, this wasn't even my argument, it was Chamyky's!
As I wrote afterwards, it originated over 10 years ago, when on windows pcs you had to install all sort of things (browser, various tools, maybe updated tcp stacks) even before starting to configure them.
Now it is easier (mainly because you no longer connect to it directly, you use a reconfigured computer that connect your pc, that is the router).
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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I don't want to join the argument (discussion?) but these things are very nice.
:3 netbooky goodness, apple doesn't really have an equivilant yet.
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What is the appeal of netbooks? I'm genuinely curious. Especially since now there's rumors that Apple is working on one.
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I don't feel the need for a netbook (but others do), but the powerbook 12 has very handy, i somewhat miss it…:rolleyes:
Anyway, that look reminds me of something…:lol:
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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I don't want to join the argument (discussion?) but these things are very nice.
:3 netbooky goodness, apple doesn't really have an equivilant yet.
ah yes macs have a way better design. And gumby what does spamming even mean? i always hear it but i dont know what it means
[Spamming in this case means "making posts that do not contribute to the discussion". If you don't want to read the thread, then simply skip over the topic, rather than complaining about the debate. --Iritscen]
Oni IRC | Kumite! Kumite! Kumite!
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Gumby wrote:You mean by using an IM program? Please explain further.
Yes, through an im client, but without needing an internet connection.
You can do that with shared folders in Windows, too, I believe. Either with a direct ethernet connection or an adhoc wireless connection.
If you have an ethernet cable (no matter if it is crossed or not: if it isn't any mac produced in the last 7 years will emulate the crossing): physically connect the two macs, open iChat, you'll see each other and be able to send the file.
If you haven't but you have macs with airport (wireless) cards (any mac produced after 2004 has one): go to the airport menu, create a new network (it's all automatic), connect to it from the other mac, then proceed as above.
Indeed. So should we be comparing laptops and Macs?
No, you should compare mac pros with professional pcs and imacs and mac minis with equivalent pcs…
that, as you wrote, cost…Probably the same as a Mac.
Ok, glad we agree.
Because there aren't forums for PC users who switched from a Mac back to a PC again.
You know anyone who returned to windows after having used Mac OS X (not mac OS 7: a lot of people did then, when apple seemed close to dying).
I'm a hermit. That's not the sort of question I would ask someone. Drop the argument until you have solid facts, please.
Also, I sometimes doubt your (talking to jackoverfull here) experience in using recent versions of Windows regularly. You use some pretty obsolete arguments at times (see above at connecting to the internetz).
Heck, this wasn't even my argument, it was Chamyky's!
As I wrote afterwards, it originated over 10 years ago, when on windows pcs you had to install all sort of things (browser, various tools, maybe updated tcp stacks) even before starting to configure them.
Now it is easier (mainly because you no longer connect to it directly, you use a reconfigured computer that connect your pc, that is the router).
Ok, sorry. Still, not a valid argument anymore. And you _can_ connect your cable\DSL modem directly to your PC, but then its a pain in the arse to let anyone else use the internets.
Oxe: that is a PC.
Also, spamming is posting completely irrelivent and useless posts in a serious debate.
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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It does seem to me that XP improved networking a fair amount. Perhaps we should let Gumby have that point, j.o.f.
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Why would you want to connect to the internet without being able to use your internet browser?
Hah . It was just to underline the fact that you get connected real fast. In Windows it's quick too, you just have to click the WiFi icon of the tray to launch the configuration (if I'm right?). Or plug-in an Ethernet cable and that's all.
And you _can_ get monitors\keyboards with USB ports for the PC.
Yeah, but all Macs will come with this kind of keyboards. You don't have to search for a keyboard like this of even think of searching; that is, in some way, pre-thought for you . It comes along with all the others improvements of that sort.
The only difference between hooking up a PC and a Mac is the monitor cords.
Hmm. I never felt the same way hooking up a PC, and a Mac. With the PC you've got to deal with longer cords, and for instance you have to actually screw the monitor cable. These are little things - but if you put all these improvements together the setup is smoother.
Aha. So you use smoke and mirrors to say that Macs win, but how it wins can't be measured.
You got me there.
That's exactly what I meant. My justification of saying the Mac wins, is the person who does the comparison, that's all. Because it's a user which uses the computer, it's this guy that should do the comparison. That is subjective, totally biased. You can't say is rationally, you've got to rely on some imaginary happy person. Or to hope the person you're arguing with will actually buy or lend a Mac some day and try it for themselves.
What if I subjectively say that I like the ergonom, ease of use, elegance, and design of my PC?
It would be totally OK, since that's your opinion which matters.
If you want to be fair with yourself doing the comparison however, you have to try each system - but if you're happy with the ergonom, ease of use, elegance, and design of your PC then there's no reason to change and consider changing.
Big objection there. There are people who switch back. There are people who are satisfied with both. Give me some sort of reasonably unbiased survey to prove otherwise.
Well, I can tell about the persons I know, but this example falls into your link's category. I can tell about the whole entirety of what I read on the Internet, but it still is included in that category.
I can tell you about two survey results I read too, but since I don't recall where they were you probably won't accept them.
So if you don't want to take my word on it I won't be able to justify more .
But, wait.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the original topic was "should I try a Mac?", right? That evolved in a Mac or PC conversation.
If Shade still reads us, then I can tell him a few things.
First a foremost, I think - that's my personal and potentially wrong opinion, beware - that you will be satisfied. I really can't see any reason you won't be! You will be able to run all the software you currently run, and so will not loose any data. You will however discover new things and a whole new philosophy about computer interaction. And that's what will determine if you like Macs or not: if you do then it'll be perfect, if you really hate the Mac OS X approach then you'll be able to run Windows only, while your Mac is on sale for Ebay for a fair price. That would be your only dissatisfaction.
But I really think you'll like your Mac .
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He should at least go to a Mac store and try one of the ones there. He probably will have issues using it at first, I'm pretty sure everyone switching from PC to Mac does.
I wish Shade would say what exactly he doesn't like about PCs though. I think we scared him off.
On the topic of combining your CPU and monitor: I prefer being able to upgrade my monitor down the road without having to update my CPU, and vice versa.
Iritscen:
Iritscen: it's amazing this program even works
Gumby: i know
Iritscen: and that statement applies to my code, not just yours
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Tou can do that with shared folders in Windows, too, I believe. Either with a direct ethernet connection or an adhoc wireless connection.
And it is a couple of click thing? Configuration included, of course…I doubt that.
I'm a hermit.
That means you don't, i guess…:rolleyes:
That's not the sort of question I would ask someone.
Why not?
Drop the argument until you have solid facts, please.
Fact: there are thousands of forums with win to mac switchers.
Another fact: it's difficult to find out a single one with people who did the other way.
Another fact: it's even difficult to find a single person that did so in the last ten years!
"Difficult", not "impossible", of course.
Ok, sorry. Still, not a valid argument anymore. And you _can_ connect your cable\DSL modem directly to your PC, but then its a pain in the arse to let anyone else use the internets.
Sorry, i don't understand what you mean…:/
He should at least go to a Mac store and try one of the ones there. He probably will have issues using it at first, I'm pretty sure everyone switching from PC to Mac does.
I agree: if there is a way to try one first it's surely better.
Even better if he can see someone that is already used to a mac use one.;)
On the topic of combining your CPU and monitor: I prefer being able to upgrade my monitor down the road without having to update my CPU, and vice versa.
OK for the CPU part, but if you got a good monitor why should you want to "upgrade" it anywhen soon?
"To the future, blinkin' an eye to the past!"
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