How good are Mac computers?

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 05:07

Iritscen wrote:

All the standard, robust *nix tools are being used behind the scenes -- gcc/g++, ld, etc., since Xcode is not a compiler or linker.

Precisely.
And llvm and gdb…and, of course, you can use all the posix standards. And, if you develop for the web, you have a standard apache server with php.

Gumby wrote:

Do I really need to paste the numerous times we could get something to compile on MSVC but not on Xcode?

This is probably a human factor…:rolleyes:

(Also, you can compile with gcc in Windows)

without thanks to microsoft…

Gumby wrote:

I'm not going to defend Internet Explorer. IE8 does work better though. However, Firefox works on all platforms. Chrome is the fastest browser out there, and passes ACID3, I think, and is avaliable only on PC.

Really?

Without mentioning the fact that chrome is largely based on the Safari (webkit) engine, wich, in turn, is largely based on the kde khtml engine…

Browser speed…everyone say that his is the fastest now!:lol:

TOCS · 07/13/09 06:07

It's pretty obvious that this forum gets it's "MAC vs PC" topic, as Oni runs on both OS..

MAC is for media users, not for gamers. Nearly every professional musican uses MAC, because it's the best platform to develope music.

Windows has always been the most used platform, due to it's functions.. You have alot more possibilities on Windows, like games, large variants of software etc.
And the visuals are getting nearly the same as MAC.. Vista, Windows 7 etc.

In my opinion I can't say it's worth buying a MAC, not if you're a gamer.

Gumby · 07/13/09 11:07

Aha, didn't know about that. It's not an official port, but whatever.

You act like you can't run apache on windows. If you really have that many issues with not having *nix tools by default, install freaking Linux. The topic creator isn't a developer. He's a normal consumer. For most people, either computer will work. For developers, it depends on your target audience. In the end, you could get a Mac dual booting Windows or a PC dual booting Linux\Hackintosh. It doesn't matter.

Shade · 07/13/09 11:07

Whats the main internet browser on the mac? I know Windows has Internet Explorer but I'm wondering what Mac's is.

Gumby · 07/13/09 12:07

Safari

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 12:07

Gumby wrote:

Aha, didn't know about that. It's not an official port, but whatever.

Didn't know? What do you think I use when I have to develop on windows?:rolleyes:

You act like you can't run apache on windows.

Yes you can. And php too. With a lot of problems of course…

If you really have that many issues with not having *nix tools by default, install freaking Linux.

Linux is good, altough i think that is not yet ready for everyone (in the end, probably, it will be), but that was not the topic…

The topic creator isn't a developer.

But he is interested in this topic…

He's a normal consumer. For most people, either computer will work.

But with macs you will get a lot less troubles!:D

For developers, it depends on your target audience.

Right.

In the end, you could get a Mac dual booting Windows or a PC dual booting Linux\Hackintosh. It doesn't matter.

I use a mac with a second partition for linux…:)
When i really have to use windows i boot it in virtual box…

Iritscen · 07/13/09 12:07

Gumby wrote:

Safari

Safari, which has the highest compliance with Web standards of all browsers. I don't even have the heart to go into the trouble IE has caused on the Internet in the past with its noncompliance (hint: IE-specific code fixes in every moderately complex site on the Net). I know IE8 is supposed to be better in that regard, but they still refuse to commit to Acid3 or HTML 5 (the parts that conflict with Silverlight, that is).

I looked into my claim about MSVC non-compliance and found that it was mostly the older releases that were infamous for this (I was thinking mainly of a recent report that turning up optimization on C code actually breaks it in some circumstances that involve loops, but that's a little different). I still see this issue as an ongoing trend in MS software, though. Just one ugly example.

Gumby · 07/13/09 12:07

Technically that wasn't a standard...we aren't talking about Office here though, we are talking about Windows.

I know IE sucks. I don't use it.

Iritscen, you even admitted on Yahoo that there isn't that much of a difference, in the end. Traitor.

Iritscen · 07/13/09 12:07

What wasn't a standard? ODF was indeed a standard, read the article for a full understanding of what MS did there. MS is pushing their own standards as usual because adopting a standard used by the competition means acknowledging the competition. MS has to pray every day that more people don't discover that they can get most of Office's functionality for free in OpenOffice, so they definitely don't need people making the connection between adding ODF support to Office and how that's OOo's format. Now I hear there's a free version of MS Office being released. I wonder how many catches there will be that will require you to buy the full version?

Iritscen, you even admitted on Yahoo that there isn't that much of a difference, in the end.

I was probably just trying to avoid an argument I usually don't get into Mac vs. PC debates these days because I got tired of them back in high school.

Gumby · 07/13/09 13:07

I'm still not going to defend Microsoft. You guys are seriously saying that there are big reasons Windows (not Microsoft) is a bad OS to use? You have to come up with some concrete problems with Windows. Poking holes in MS's apps and referencing Windows 98 is not going to cut it.

Lithium · 07/13/09 14:07

god this is just like the yankees and sox arguement or if ur mexican chivas vs america.

Iritscen · 07/13/09 14:07

I don't think Windows is nearly as bad as it used to be, but I also haven't gotten to use Vista or 7 so I can't offer any specific complaints. It's also hard for me to argue Macs over PCs without getting into my personal feelings about Microsoft, whose products I boycott. Since I feel that one should only use a company's products when they can approve of the company's actions, it's hard to understand how someone could admit MS is bad but still use their product. But I also recognize that my feelings are stronger about MS than most people's are. I also feel that most people are apathetic about, or unaware of, the harm MS has done over the years with their monopolies.

Inertia is a part of human nature, and people tend not to explore other options beyond the popular ones they are handed by society. So I think it's commendable whenever someone has the courage to try a new platform -- Mac or Windows -- as well as when they have the courage to recognize that their old choice was the wrong one for them after all. Most people grow to love Macs once they start using them. Hardcore gamers and certain tech-heads (the kind who resisted Windows as an unnecessary GUI when DOS "worked just fine") are basically the only ones who don't. The rest won't know until they try!

P.S.: It's not unusual for a long-time Windows user to hedge their bets and keep their PC running while they learn the Mac OS. That way they're not leaving behind all their old software at once. A friend who switched still uses his PC for games and watching DVDs.

oxe161: As long as the debate remains civil I think it's fine to revisit this ages-old battle once in a (long) while.

Gumby · 07/13/09 14:07

You still haven't said what makes it worth the money to switch over to a Mac.
---
If this gets too bad, I'll just close the topic.

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 17:07

Gumby wrote:

You still haven't said what makes it worth the money to switch over to a Mac.

-Not having software problems (viruses, self destroying configuration…);
-Not having to hunt down any hardware driver;
-No need to worry about the OS license/activation code;
-No need to reboot or shutdown (a mac user usually reboot only when a software update say to do so and, if he use a laptop, never shut it down);
-Very, very rare crashes/hangs;
-It's unlikely that you will have to call a technician (and pay for it). OK, you may be a geek who can solve almost every problem, but you still pay for it: you pay with your time.
-Often things that are usually complex on windows on Mac OS X "simply works".:)

Just some good reasons…;)

If this gets too bad, I'll just close the topic.

Well, it doesn't seem that bad to me…:lol:

Gumby · 07/13/09 17:07

jackoverfull wrote:

Gumby wrote:
You still haven't said what makes it worth the money to switch over to a Mac.
-Not having software problems (viruses, self destroying configuration…);

I never get viruses. Go figure. Also, "self destroying"?/

-Not having to hunt down any hardware driver;

All new hardware comes with a driver CD. Most new hardware will automatically install without even needing a cd

-No need to worry about the OS license/activation code;

What? Null point, if we are considering buying a PC premade, which is the only way you can buy a Mac. Even then, its a 30 second process.

-No need to reboot or shutdown (a mac user usually reboot only when a software update say to do so and, if he use a laptop, never shut it down);

Ask Iritscen, I only reboot when I have to switch OSs. You are thinking of Win98

-Very, very rare crashes/hangs;

Again, Win98. Unless you have old hardware or unreliable applications (not windows fault), you shouldn't crash.

-It's unlikely that you will have to call a technician (and pay for it). OK, you may be a geek who can solve almost every problem, but you still pay for it: you pay with your time.

So what happens when your Mac breaks? It does happen.

-Often things that are usually complex on windows on Mac OS X "simply works".:)

Examples, please. I won't accept this kind of reason.

Just some good reasons…;)

Not really.

Alloc · 07/13/09 17:07

Gumby wrote:

You still haven't said what makes it worth the money to switch over to a Mac.

Just had to drop in on this point ;D
You still haven't said where Macs are more expensive than "normal" PCs. As some ppl said before they are *not* for what you get
(Won't give any further comments on the "better" OS, that's just up to the "needs" of the user)

Regards,
Chris

Gumby · 07/13/09 17:07

Ok, fine, I drop the issue of the pricing. They are expensive though, I'm just used to getting extra good deals on hardware.

Alloc · 07/13/09 18:07

Gumby wrote:

Ok, fine, I drop the issue of the pricing. They are expensive though, I'm just used to getting extra good deals on hardware.

True, they are. But not in relation to the provided hardware in terms of power/features and quality

Iritscen · 07/13/09 18:07

It's probably a good time to mention that Apple sells refurbs (go to the Store, and look for the Special Deals box at the bottom-left). My switcher friend bought a refurbed MacBook that he is happy with. But general consensus is that the old price gap between Macs and PCs is mostly gone these days.

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 18:07

Gumby wrote:

I never get viruses. Go figure.

So you're probably the only windows user in the world that do not get viruses…:rolleyes:

Also, "self destroying"?

I configure my environment (theme, bars position, "open with" preferences, default applications), everything is ok for months, then, without any reason, i login and everything is back to the default settings. It happened twice to me.:/

Or updates that mess up with the bootloader…:rolleyes:

All new hardware comes with a driver CD.

That you will not find next time you'll have to reainstall windows!:lol:
Or that will be incompatible with the next version of the os…:rolleyes:

Oh, right, forgot that: no need to reinstall.:)

What? Null point, if we are considering buying a PC premade, which is the only way you can buy a Mac. Even then, its a 30 second process.

But you have to keep your code, then after some reinstallation you'll have to call ms and similar things…:rolleyes:
May be different on some pcs that come with a restore disk only, but i'm not sure.

Ask Iritscen, I only reboot when I have to switch OSs. You are thinking of Win98

-Very, very rare crashes/hangs;
Again, Win98. Unless you have old hardware or unreliable applications (not windows fault), you shouldn't crash.

If you say so…:rolleyes:
My experience with windows pcs tells me otherwise…

Examples, please. I won't accept this kind of reason.

-Wireless. In my class (i'm taking informatics at the university, btw) the only students that had problems with the wireless we have there (you need to download a certificate, then sign in with it) are the few that still use windows.

-Java based programming. On os X: install the developer tools, your environment is fine. On Linux: install the correct package from the repo, you're ready. On windows: find the correct jdk version, download it, install it, hope that it set up the environment correctly, if it does not (and, often, it does not), go and figure how to configure it by yourself.

-dual boot with another os(!!). Bootcamp is simply that simple. No need to worry about deleting the wrong partition, no need to worry about the bootloader. No need to worry about the bios settings. Just follow the very simple instructions and you're fine.

Shall I continue?

Iritscen · 07/13/09 18:07

I'll throw another in that I've always appreciated:

- No registry

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 18:07

Iritscen wrote:

I'll throw another in that I've always appreciated:
- No registry

+1!:D

Gumby · 07/13/09 18:07

jackoverfull, when is the last time you used a windows pc for an appreciable amount of time?

jackoverfull · 07/13/09 18:07

Gumby wrote:

jackoverfull, when is the last time you owned a windows pc?

Never (well, not really, I have a couple of virtual machines and a pc that immediately got linux). But i have to use them almost everyday…:rolleyes:

Alloc · 07/13/09 18:07

jackoverfull wrote:

So you're probably the only windows user in the world that do not get viruses…:rolleyes:

I do neither ... as long as you know what to do you won't get any. The idea that viruses can install themselves in some magic way is just wrong

jackoverfull wrote:

I configure my environment (theme, bars position, "open with" preferences, default applications), everything is ok for months, then, without any reason, i login and everything is back to the default settings. It happened twice to me.:/
Or updates that mess up with the bootloader…:rolleyes:

Even though such things *might* happen (and I don't assume that you told us wrong) it happens really rarely. Especially things with the bootloader ... Besides the time you install the OS it shouldn't happen at all, since there's just no reason an OS would fiddle with the BL. And never happened for me at least

jackoverfull wrote:

All new hardware comes with a driver CD.
That you will not find next time you'll have to reainstall windows!:lol:
Or that will be incompatible with the next version of the os…:rolleyes:

Is that a prob with the OS or with the hardware vendors? I hope you know the right answer ...

jackoverfull wrote:

Oh, right, forgot that: no need to reinstall.:)

As stated above: As long as you know what you do you shouldn't get any reason to reinstall a M$ OS every month.

jackoverfull wrote:

But you have to keep your code, then after some reinstallation you'll have to call ms and similar things…:rolleyes:
May be different on some pcs that come with a restore disk only, but i'm not sure.

So you are saying that keeping the licenses and stuff shipped with a machine (or the plain OS packet if you got it on its own) is wrong?

jackoverfull wrote:

-Very, very rare crashes/hangs;
Again, Win98. Unless you have old hardware or unreliable applications (not windows fault), you shouldn't crash.
If you say so…:rolleyes:
My experience with windows pcs tells me otherwise…

That's what was already stated earlier here: Don't just use your experiences with old OS. Allmost any software is improved over time. Even my XP machines crash rarely and if they do it's mostly related to software/hardware and not caused by the OS. And W7/Vista are doing a lot better here again.

jackoverfull wrote:

Examples, please. I won't accept this kind of reason.
-Wireless. In my class (i'm taking informatics at the university, btw) the only students that had problems with the wireless we have there (you need to download a certificate, then sign in with it) are the few that still use windows.

Yup, Windows Wireless was just bad. *Please note the "was". Can't tell about W7/Vista*
But if you owned "good" hardware, in this case Intel WLAN chipsets, you've always got the option to use their WLAN stuff which works really good (also in the case of WPA2 Enterprise with RADIUS authentication or similar setups).

jackoverfull wrote:

-Java based programming. On os X: install the developer tools, your environment is fine. On Linux: install the correct package from the repo, you're ready. On windows: find the correct jdk version, download it, install it, hope that it set up the environment correctly, if it does not (and, often, it does not), go and figure how to configure it by yourself.

"if it does not"... What the heck? Besides the fact, that this again would be a prob of SUN and *not* M$ Win this is really news to me ^^
Downloading and installing a package: What's wrong here? Just because M$ doesn't provide a package manager? How should they anyway in a commercial product like theirs? (Don't think they could easily implement anything close to APT or such because they can't collect all programs out there and provide them in a repository).

jackoverfull wrote:

-dual boot with another os(!!). Bootcamp is simply that simple. No need to worry about deleting the wrong partition, no need to worry about the bootloader. No need to worry about the bios settings. Just follow the very simple instructions and you're fine.

Where do you have to change BIOS settings in order to boot multiple OS? What if I have more complex partitioning setups than what Bootcamp provides on a Mac? Btw, they don't even implement standard UEFI afair ...

jackoverfull wrote:

Shall I continue?

You don't have to. Most arguments you gave up to now are just old and outdated ^^

/EDIT:
I should probably repeat it: I'm *not* pro Microsoft. I personally could even say I hate their politics. That does still not mean their products are 100% crap or anything like that. They've got their good and bad sides, just like almost anything out there.
I just don't like it when people are like "M$ is shit, Apple is given by god". That's almost the same bullshit like what M$ fanboys do. I personally use Linux and still wouldn't say it's always superior to M$ Windows and Mac OS X. It has it's flaws, some of them I even notice regularly. I use it before *in my case* it's probably the best option. I wouldn't recommend to all other people out there because it just isn't perfect for anyone. Period.

Last edited by Alloc (07/13/09 19:07)

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Re: How good are Mac computers?

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